It would be nice if the world was so easily divided into black and white, but it isn’t. Politics is complicated, and the actions of the Israeli government are not the actions or even the will of the Israeli people. Israel deserves to exist, and so does Palestine. Acknowledging the rights of both people doesn’t negate condemnation of what either government has done in violation of human rights.
Trying to walk that middle line between their right to exist and disavowing their actions is harder than you think. You think it ought to be easy, except for the people who think differently from you and insist that the opposite solution you want is the only acceptable path.
We don’t have the privilege of knowing everything about the situation. Trying to drive from the back seat isn’t helpful.
and the actions of the Israeli government are not the actions or even the will of the Israeli people
the government of Israel is nominally democratically elected. I have no idea how fair those elections were or weren’t. That government represents the people. if the people have a problem with it’s actions… it’s probably time for them to do something about it. In the mean time, there are some things that are pretty fucking black and white. Genocide is one of them.
Supporting genocide… is not cool.
We don’t have the privilege of knowing everything about the situation.
Are you saying that Israel is some how not committing war crimes and atrocities?
Genocide is bad. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are guilty. But the Israeli people and the Palestinian people are not their governments. We can’t abandon either of them and keep the moral high ground. So how do we accomplish all of those goals and get their governments to accept it.
You can’t force your black and white perspective on this no matter how satisfying you might find it.
So we (the us) are obligated provide military aid to genocidal maniacs?
I think you need to get your moral compass checked. There is exactly zero justification for continuing military aid to Israel… and biden’s “tough” language has no teeth and we all know it.
Remember… the reason we’ve given Israel so much aid in the past is precisely to give Biden teeth- but now that we’re here he’s a coward. (Or actively hoping for AIPAC money.)
So you know exactly what details give you the moral probity to make these confident statements? I’m glad we have authorities like you to give us moral clarity. I had no idea you were in possession of state level secrets.
Let’s make this equal: Palestinians have a right to defend themselves.
Merely existing isn’t the same standard. Every single argument except “the holocaust and you owe us”… can be flipped and used to back a pro-Palestine position,
Further? Your argument is… pretty freaking atrocious. We have no moral obligation to provide military aid to Israel.
Providing military aid to a nation that is committed to a genocidal campaign more than kind of makes us complicit in said genocide.
We can and should support the civilians. Doesn’t mean we have to support genocide and provide genocidal maniacs weapons of war.
Finally, and this is critical. Israel is, nominally, a democratic state. The current government was elected into power what? Last year?
Gaza residents last had an election 17 years ago, with the wining party (Hamas) having been supported by Israel specifically to destabilize Palestine… and even then they only had 44% of the vote. More than half of Gazans that are alive today did not get to vote then.
It is fair to say that Gazans aren’t responsible for Hamas’ actions. It is less fair to say Israelis are not responsible.
The US provides Israel with billions in money and weapons every year, while making sure everyone knows that if anyone tries to stop their genocide the US has Israels back. They have a air craft carrier group parked just outside for a reason.
Right, he didn’t actively say he’s a Zionist and pledge support no matter what Israel’s actions.
He did say he’s a Zionist.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/
I’ve recently noticed that Lemmy often has great difficulty with detecting sarcasm.
It’s like the sarcasm-aware never left Reddit and the ones that did just can’t spot it even when pretty blatant in front of their face.
I would have thought that would be the one place where a /s isn’t needed
So “both sides” because Biden believes Israel should be allowed to exist? 🙄
The issue is that Israel is refusing to allow Palistinians the same right to exist.
Right now, supporting Israel is the same as supporting genocide. Any moral obligation to support Israel has long since eroded into history.
It would be nice if the world was so easily divided into black and white, but it isn’t. Politics is complicated, and the actions of the Israeli government are not the actions or even the will of the Israeli people. Israel deserves to exist, and so does Palestine. Acknowledging the rights of both people doesn’t negate condemnation of what either government has done in violation of human rights.
Trying to walk that middle line between their right to exist and disavowing their actions is harder than you think. You think it ought to be easy, except for the people who think differently from you and insist that the opposite solution you want is the only acceptable path.
We don’t have the privilege of knowing everything about the situation. Trying to drive from the back seat isn’t helpful.
the government of Israel is nominally democratically elected. I have no idea how fair those elections were or weren’t. That government represents the people. if the people have a problem with it’s actions… it’s probably time for them to do something about it. In the mean time, there are some things that are pretty fucking black and white. Genocide is one of them.
Supporting genocide… is not cool.
Are you saying that Israel is some how not committing war crimes and atrocities?
Genocide is bad. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are guilty. But the Israeli people and the Palestinian people are not their governments. We can’t abandon either of them and keep the moral high ground. So how do we accomplish all of those goals and get their governments to accept it.
You can’t force your black and white perspective on this no matter how satisfying you might find it.
So we (the us) are obligated provide military aid to genocidal maniacs?
I think you need to get your moral compass checked. There is exactly zero justification for continuing military aid to Israel… and biden’s “tough” language has no teeth and we all know it.
Remember… the reason we’ve given Israel so much aid in the past is precisely to give Biden teeth- but now that we’re here he’s a coward. (Or actively hoping for AIPAC money.)
So you know exactly what details give you the moral probity to make these confident statements? I’m glad we have authorities like you to give us moral clarity. I had no idea you were in possession of state level secrets.
Morality isn’t a state secret.
There is no justification I’m prepared to accept from my elected leaders for supporting genocide.
Palestine doesn’t have WMD’s any more than Iraq does.
The problem is people acting like the alternative to Biden is any better
Exactly! And these protest vote morons couldn’t pick a worse time to bury their stupid heads in the sand
A lot of it is Russian and GOP psyop bullshit on social media
the problem is just having the one alternative
False dilemma.
It’s possible to support the position of both sides.
Israel has a right to defend itself.
The Palestinian people have a right to exist.
Let’s make this equal: Palestinians have a right to defend themselves.
Merely existing isn’t the same standard. Every single argument except “the holocaust and you owe us”… can be flipped and used to back a pro-Palestine position,
Further? Your argument is… pretty freaking atrocious. We have no moral obligation to provide military aid to Israel.
Providing military aid to a nation that is committed to a genocidal campaign more than kind of makes us complicit in said genocide.
We can and should support the civilians. Doesn’t mean we have to support genocide and provide genocidal maniacs weapons of war.
Finally, and this is critical. Israel is, nominally, a democratic state. The current government was elected into power what? Last year?
Gaza residents last had an election 17 years ago, with the wining party (Hamas) having been supported by Israel specifically to destabilize Palestine… and even then they only had 44% of the vote. More than half of Gazans that are alive today did not get to vote then.
It is fair to say that Gazans aren’t responsible for Hamas’ actions. It is less fair to say Israelis are not responsible.
The US provides Israel with billions in money and weapons every year, while making sure everyone knows that if anyone tries to stop their genocide the US has Israels back. They have a air craft carrier group parked just outside for a reason.
Do all countries have a right to exist, or just Israel?
Could you clarify your position please?