Trump winning supports the genocide of every LGBTQ+ person in all of North America, be it directly or indirectly. No one wants what is happening in Gaza. But, I have to say the potential genocide (in the sense of complete erasure of culture as well as open murders with little to no consequences sense) here is even higher.
I have the unfortunate circumstance of being a trans woman in GA. I already have had to completely shut off most contact with people, both work and personal.
I’ve already had rocks thrown at me in an attempt to kill me (this was years ago, even). I already feel like I have to carry a gun. If things go the way they seem, I will even have to order in groceries because it will further empower the people that hate my existence.
The foreign policy is shit, no question. However, I don’t like the possibility of being raped and murdered by some asshole that thinks he understands Co² emissions after watching some video.
I have a lot to say here, especially as a very blue collar machinist. I will refrain, though.
In conclusion: by “avoiding” the genocide in Gaza (which would have in my opinion had a much higher chance of being resolved with Democratic policies), you have also doomed people like me to maybe live in fear for the rest of our lives.
I feel for your very unfortunate situation, but maybe you should’ve demanded more from your party, instead of putting the blame on people who draw the line at genocide. If the choice is between the number of genocides, maybe we should take a step back and reflect a little because this doesn’t stop anywhere. Next time there will be two, three…
Republicans can go as fascist as they want, but if the Democrats are drugged in this race to the right, they will lose. They endorsed the wall, they did nothing about the immigrants and they 100% backed a genocide no questions asked, ever, what difference is an immigrant or Arab supposed to see from this?
No matter how much you accuse the people who didn’t vote, the truth of the matter is that nothing will change if you don’t demand from your party to stand for some values. For now, they follow Trump moving to the right.
I don’t understand why only one group of people can be blamed.
Trump voters, non voters, the democratic party, etc all have varying amounts of blood on their hands. Be it the blood of Gazaouites, queer folks, immigrants, or simply women.
Because the democrats didn’t stand by any values that supposedly differentiated them from the republicans like I explained, but you don’t seem to really care. You can put it on non-voters or third party voters all you want, the truth is that Netanyahu got anything he ever wanted and asked for by the US under Biden and Harris and not acknowledging this is part of the problem. Immigrants got the same treatment under them as well, which I also mention and you don’t really care.
That’s the issue with not having any red line, you will always play by the rules of the far right. And that will make you indistinguishable from them which will alienate the people who want change. They don’t see an alternative to a very very dark situation. In good faith, you would very much understand why endorsing the wall, genocide Gaza and standing proudly by it, supporting Israel unwaveringly, not promoting any substantial progressive economic or ecological policies and in general why having an extreme neoliberal agenda would not compel people to vote for you.
It’s not on the disappointed voters that you people can’t understand what having a red line means. Consequentialism simply does not hold up when the difference are so miniscule and the evil is so big.
I’m really tired of going over this again and again, if you could feel a fraction of the pain the democrats and their oligarchs brought by committing the worst crime against humanity of the 21st century and how the millions of pleas for embargo went ignored this past year and a month, you wouldn’t be asking this.
I think there’s a slight misunderstanding. And a good part of it is on me.
First and foremost: democrats sucks. They suck so hard it’s honestly mind boggling that the republicans manage to beat them to the punch.
My point is that in that instance of first past the post election they’re the slightly less worst choice on a lot of issues, including Palestine (and yeah that previous slightly is doing a lot pf legwork). This is why one should vote for them. This is also why they need to be shamed and harassed into better stances.
I know it’s a heart wrenching choice. I should have worded my previous comment differently in order to establish that non voters where on the very bottom rung of the blame ladder.
But the US is a reprensentative Republic with a fucked up version of first past the post winner takes all voting (which is already fucked up in its own right). There are absolutely no good choices in that election. Only slightly less bad ones and whatever one can get away with while still retaining a modicum of sleep.
There should be riots about the Democrats, riots about the republicans, riots about how fragile the entire American political system is, riots about the election system where your vote only matters in a few select states, and some more riots for an unending list of reasons.
I do care, even if I’m not a US citizen and live in one of the regions where I’m the most sheltered against American tomfoolery (western Europe).
I just think that voting democrats in this election was the least uneffective way to do harm reduction.
I’m not disagreeing on the facts. The democrats truly are the lesser evil and they truly are very evil. They did awful and Trump will do worse. There should be protests and everything.
All that is good. I don’t know about you, you seem more open minded than the average user here, but most democrat supporters cannot understand the idea that someone can decide whether to vote and what to vote for with a different logic/philosophy - not with different facts.
Most of the time we judge things with a consequentialist mindset, it’s the default for most people. It goes like this: what action out of all the possibilities produces the best results, positive or negative, it doesn’t matter as long as one is above the other? I choose that. That’s very standard but it has problems and there are a lot of philosophers who have criticised consequentialism/utilitarianism. One criticism is what time in the future are you assessing the consequences? It can be a year, it can be ten years. If Harris had won, would the LGBTQ rights be protected more? Yes, but would the democrats become more unhinged in Gaza, as they basically got away with a genocide? Also yes. Would that further move them to the right(because that’s what the oligarchs who fund them want and since they met no resistance), adopting extreme far right policies, like endorsing the wall? So would they in the long term turn out worse and worse? Yes. Someone can argue therefore, that a crushing defeat can maybe help them move to the left even a little bit finally, which in the long term can be more beneficial.
Another criticism is that for a lot of people like I said there is a red line. That’s following the deontological framework, where basically the means justify the end, the opposite of consequentialism where the end justifies the means. I’m not saying one framework is better than the other, I believe both have their merits and can be applied in different contexts. In this particular example where the democrats have done so absolutely horrific on all fronts but especially on Palestine, voting for them cannot be justified. They have crossed too many lines to be justified by the end. That end being miniscule differences, basically non existent on anything other than a handful of social issues.
It’s ok if you disagree, I’m not going to tell you what to believe, the issue is not recognising the different perspective, which is just not going to lead you anywhere. I’m going to keep explaining this and you(or anyone in your place) will keep repeating the same consequentialist argument. It will not get you anywhere cause it’s not a matter of misunderstanding or not realising the consequences, it’s a matter of framework and a matter of ideology at the end of the day.
So, your argumentation is sound. The problem is that demonology is not a tennable position. Not quite sure where you got the idea that consequentialism is the default either, but thats an aside
Truth is, no, I don’t care. Liberals and progressives arent a viable coalition, the Democratic party is cooked
Our party? Democrats are no more my party than Republicans are. They are objectively the better option for someone like me given the alternative, but in no way do they represent me. They are just another element of the capitalist corporate hegemony, and I’m just a consumer to them.
I wasn’t the first to ask the question, but I haven’t heard an answer: If the genocide of Palestine is an acceptable price to pay to get a Democrat elected, then why wouldn’t trans genocide also be an acceptable price because of the threat to cis women? The utilitarian ethical calculation still works just fine.
I think you are asking the wrong person, I’m the one saying the Palestinian genocide crosses the line. Although I don’t 100% understand the logic behind this. What’s the threat to cis women?
Although I’m suspecting the answer someone would give you is that it’s because the trans genocide will happen to “us the US citizens” not some Arabs at the other side of the world we don’t really care that much about.
Oh yes, sorry, I try to use Lemmy as a place for discussion, not an arena for rhetorical warfare. I had enough of that at the red site. So, I’m not challenging you, but building on your point.
Thanks for the Devil’s Advocate explanation. That’s what I suspect the answer is, too.
You could ask that question, but the answer doesnt matter politically. Women, cis and trans, are on the same side in that if the genocide of the latter is plausible, the former is already pretty hard done by. A worsening of one position necessarily accompanies the other. Gaza does not work like this. Republicans are obviously the worse choice there too. You can argue about red lines and such, but thats not how realpolitik works. We get two options, nothing more or less, zero alternatives. The consensus necessary to change this is not possible in the current political climate. Denying support to the lesser evil on the basis of said evil when their opponent will do that same evil but more is not logical.
Tangentially relatee, there are those who sacrifice trans women for the sake of cis women. We call them terfs, and they’ve largely backed rightwing parties
I feel like the very existence of TERFs shows daylight between cis and trans women. In any case, even if it may not matter politically at the moment, I’m still interested in the answer to the question.
the neat part is now we get both genocides.
He had one genocide, yes. But what about the second (and third) genocide?
And fourth?
Life could be an all you can eat buffet, except every course is genocide.
In conclusion: by “avoiding” the genocide in Gaza (which would have in my opinion had a much higher chance of being resolved with Democratic policies), you have also doomed people like me to maybe live in fear for the rest of our lives.
Doesn’t matter. They get to LARP with their purity politics. The lives of American minorities don’t matter to them.
Dumb fucking children
I’ve taken to calling them out as exactly what they are: virtue signallers. Like you said, they’re just larping about caring about these people, and boy do they get salty when they have to deny it.
The democrats do not care about American minorities
Trump doesn’t have the competence to implement a genocide. He doesn’t even have the competence to book a room at the 4 seasons.
He hasn’t had an original thought in years. Look at his plans, they are against most of his life choices. He’s an old manipulated man.
I hope for the best for your safety, sanity, and well being. Fuck this “interesting times” nonsense.
I have to reply here because SDF was down for a while and federation is still catching up. I want yout to know, though, you’ve kept me laughing and that has helped me a lot, so thanks for that.
Thank you for doing the same.
The laughter is the release and therapy we’ll be needing going forward.
There’s a reason people’s are cursed “to live in interesting times.”
Me as a child:
Wow! History was horrible at times, but so interesting, too! Just imagine if we could have seen that first hand!
Me now:
No, not like that.
How about we stop the blame game and stay focused on fighting for both (and to be honest many more) causes?
There was always going to be a fight, it was only a matter of how we were going to fight.
All three branches of the federal government is under MAGA control. There is no fighting back.
stay focused on fighting for both
We’re going to see both ends played against the middle. I fully expect to see wave after wave of (often AI generated) images and testimonials, depicting Arab men and Trans Women fighting each other tooth-and-claw, while I’m told I need to apologize for the savagery of these two groups.
There was always going to be a fight, it was only a matter of how we were going to fight.
The conflict lines are already shaping up. Palestinian Rights Activists robbed Trans people of their freedom and dignity. Trans Activists sacrificed POC on the alter of convenience. The only way forward is to abandon both causes and accept a compromised second class citizenship mediated by a bunch of straight white wealthy bureaucrats. Otherwise, we’ll get the business end of the police baton while the media reports us all as violent dissidents and human shields.
I hate to downvote a Star Trek meme, but that top half is inaccurate. America voted for a genocide of American LGBTQ and Gaza. Both.
We “avoided” precisely fuck-all and everyone who claimed otherwise is a blatant goddamn liar.
It’s directed at people who absolutely cannot vote for Harris due to her stance on Gaza. Instead, they enabled a war on their LGBTQ neighbors.
But that’s my point, though: they didn’t do that “instead.” They did that in addition to!
Fucking lying, bloodthirsty, fascist clowns, all of them.
Now that the election is over, we can admit it: both sides were bad. Sure Trump is worse, but Harris can be blamed too
There’s plenty of anger and blame for everyone today. Trump and his voters are the most at fault. Harris listened to the lobbyists instead of polls about Palestine. Democrats should never have nominated Biden, and shouldn’t have gaslit everyone about the economy being fine. Americans are far right.
And last of all, I’ve never punched a Nazi or joined a union myself.
And last of all, I’ve never punched a Nazi or joined a union myself.
Not yet.
You’re not wrong. Yeah, I could have done better, but I’m in a self induced drunken rage.
Understandable. I feel sorry for you guys.
We still have the 2nd amendment. That’s the one thing conservatives will not take from us.
Sure they will.
Yeah, I was telling my partner that the conservatives will probably come for our guns before the democrats. Especially if Trump gets elected. But hopefully I’m wrong.
Don’t know why you got a downvotes, Hamburger Hitler said he’d take them without due process
Conservatives don’t have to take away the 2nd, it benefits them a lot more than it benefits you.
Until the fighting starts.
Still better than nothing
“We may not have democracy for very long now, but at least the school shootings will continue”
I’m pro school shooter 💪
100%
One is occupied, in an open air prison, being bombed, no food, no water and no one to aid them. The other may have some of their rights taken. Don’t compare the two.
The other may have some of their rights taken.
They may also be barred from exercising certain professions and be treated as all around second class citizens.
They may also be barred from life saving medications and procedures.
They will be subject to more violence up to and including murder and it may be swept under the rug.
At least be a bit more exhaustive. And they isn’t restricted to queer people. They’re also racized folks, muslim, jewish, or simply women.
And while I agree that there aren’t many situations which remotely might compare to the literal hell on earth that is Gaza, let’s not forget that a lot of other people are in sucky situations which will get worse as a result of that election.
this meme implies that lives of americans has more worth than lives of gazans. your rage is justified but outlawing essential healthcare for lgbtq+ is not the same as a hostile military force genociding and ethnically cleansing you. bad meme all around.
They don’t care as long as it doesn’t affect them. Did you ever see dem voters wish death to biden or obama. They are brain washed into thinking lesser evil is better. Evil is evil no matter what. Trump 4 years and then maybe dem another 4 years and the cycle repeats.
Yes, we all know that enabling TWO genocides is much better. That must be what you think, considering that’s the direct result of your stance. The situation in Gaza was never going to change, but as for what COULD change, by fucking god, you sure made it change. It’s thanks to virtue signalers like you that we now have foreign genocide with a side of domestic trans-hunting.
Removed by mod
They don’t care as long as it doesn’t affect them.
That’s you one post ago. Looks like someone was projecting.
Lets clarify your stance here. Dems are brainwashed and don’t care about Gaza because it doesn’t affect them… but you don’t care about what happens to Americans because it doesn’t affect you… 🤔
You’re taking a stance against genocide in Gaza… but that same stance indirectly extends the genocide… 🤔And that’s not to mention the longer term affects caused by Trump’s stance on things like fossil fuels and climate change.
It was a statement and yours was crying, tone defines how people take it. Dk what you mean by projecting cause I’m neither in America nor Palestine.
No. My stance is most Americans are brain washed into thinking they have to vote for capitalism.
What happened to Americans? Were all american lgbt people exiled in 2016?
What stance did I take that increases the genocide? Are libs so brainwashed, that they can’t comprehend anything except voting any one of the two? I’m no American, i don’t vote there.
You think dems get their funds from forests or alaskan mountains? Saying we are better than them doesn’t mean dems implement any laws to better the climate. Can you reference any climate change policies biden govt implemented that may reap benifits?
All I’m saying people should unite to end this stupid capitalist capitalist world.
It was a statement and yours was crying, tone defines how people take it.
It’s called accusing, as in calling you out for your blatant hypocrisy.
Dk what you mean by projecting cause I’m neither in America nor Palestine.
Surely you can’t be this dense? You can’t actually believe that’s what I meant, can you? That’s plainly stupid. You’re projecting because you show the exact lack of empathy you accuse others of.
Were all american lgbt people exiled in 2016?
Were there bounties on trans people prior to 2016? Were there blanket bans on abortion? Were there calls to bring back fucking asbestos? It’s called escalation.
What stance did I take that increases the genocide?
The same one that drove 20 million more people to abstain from voting than four years ago, leading to Trump’s win.
Are libs so brainwashed, that they can’t comprehend anything except voting any one of the two?
Don’t comment on things that you’re this clueless about.
Can you reference any climate change policies biden govt implemented that may reap benifits?
Nope, but you know what I can reference? Trump policies that had detrimental effects on the clime, such as withdrawing from the Paris agreement. Didn’t see that kind of shit under Biden.
All I’m saying people should unite to end this stupid capitalist capitalist world.
“All I’m saying is that the half of the US that gives a shit should stand up against both the other half and the government itself!” It’s not 1793, we can’t just behead our leader and start fresh. Besides, you sure as shit said a lot more than just that.
Did biden improve climate change was my question. Waiting for an answer.
You’re looking for someone to blame for Trump winning and decided to blame the wrong people because you’re angry and need an easier target. Not the 70 million Americans who voted for Trump eh? Not the Harris campaign staff who refused to let Palestinians endorse Harris at the DNC and were trying to get their community to join them?
No, blame other victims because only your suffering counts. We’re ALL suffering.
Its always amazing to me.the lengths someone will go to to avoid blaming their party or candidate for a loss. The blame is not even directed to the millions of people who actively voted for the fascist, but to the political minority with the least impact on the result.
Lets face facts. The DNCs strategy to move to the right and court the mythical moderate Republican failed again. Their strategy to fund extremist Republican candidates in local races was another bet on the goodwill of the GOP voters and look they lost the Senate. They failed you.
They failed the country. They had a huge hand in creating the trump mess for their own assumed gain and yet, none of the average libs will acknowledge it. They took the votes of independents and leftists for granted and decided Liz Cheney and AIPAC would bring them victory and they failed again. Face it.
I indeed blame voters. It’s your damn civic duty
Big principal Skinner energy
I don’t see why it’s exclusive though.
First and foremost, Republican voters are to blame.
Voters who didn’t make the choice of voting for the milquetoast liberal instead of the overt fascist are to blame.
People who argued for the both sides are the same rhetoric ad nauseam are to blame. I wholeheartedly agree that both sides suck, but let’s not be delusional there’s obviously one that’s worst.
The Democratic party which propped up the most extreme fascists while courting anything supposedly both undecided and to their right instead of all the leftist voters are to blame.
Even if it’s conceptually easier to handle, in such a shitty situation there’s usually a lot of blame to go around.
Agreed, it’s their civic duty, but if 2/3rds of the people think the electoral college needs to go,it’s the civic duty of the politicians to represent that. The US democracy is just so terrible that just blaming the voters is the easy way out. It’s the undemocratic system which year over year hasn’t changed even though the consequences were predicted year over year. This is not hindsight!
Hear hear.
Trump won against Harris by a margin multiple times the size of all the third party votes combined. Blaming Stein or Gaza protestors for the loss is false. Heck, this shows that Harris lost Michigan by far more than the total number of Arab-American and Muslim voters in the state. But we get blamed anyway, it’s an American tradition by this point for both parties to hate us.
Do you think Muslim Americans are the only ones who sat out over Gaza?
Then maybe Harris should have listened to what the majority of Americans wanted over her donors.
Oh trump is going to help flatten Gaza with such a raging boner. Everyone that voted “uncommitted” has the blood on their hands they blamed others. Fucking repugnant
I too am over all the genocide Joe dipshits on forums. Congrats you handed the country to a dictator.
I sincerely hope you get the policy on Palestine that you voted for!
I’d encourage any readers of this comment to look at this idiots most recent few posts. They’re a lying, genocide celebrating piece of shit - astroturf or otherwise.
You fought for this result, and now you’re going to try to pretend that you were doing the exact opposite? Fuck all the way off.
Uncommitted to democracy, uncommitted to secular society, uncommitted to global stability, must I go on.
Everyone that voted “uncommitted” has the blood on their hands
Once again, the peaceful protesters are responsible for the state violence inflicted upon them. Its just like when the BLM protesters cost Hillary the election. Or when the LGBTQ community and the anti-war movement handed Bush a second term.
Just stop resisting! Stop resisting! Stop resisting or you will be hurt much worse! And then you will have only yourself to blame!
Theres a little thing called picking your battles
You voted for trump. You’ll get what you deserve.
Nope. Try blaming the right people for a change.
Removed by mod
Wow, victim blaming and bigotry. That really showed me how much you want to save us minorities from fascists right?
Polling shows you’re wrong, but if you want to blame Muslims and Jews (rather than Biden’s screwups that hobbled Harris’ campaign) it’s basically an American tradition by this point.
Honestly I’m hoping he gets stuck between a rock and a hard place. IF he lets Israel do so he cannot help Putin defend Iran, his missile and Drone supplier. Millions will suffer, no doubt. It’s horrifying, but Trump can’t let Israel kill wildly (hard to say they haven’t been) until he gets the majority of the U.S. to side against Russias invasion of Ukraine. Which means also turning against trade agreements in Europe. He will have to kill so much to gain little. (A few beach condos in the West Bank) Is what all of that started about. His son did the appraisals if I remember correctly.
Meaning. Would it not be easier to collect $2 billion in kick backs from Putin and ditch Israel. My thought is that is what he will choose. He will say the ammo caches we have their are dated, and we have no interest supporting foreign wars. So cut funding and ammunitions to Ukraine/Israel. His base will act like it is for a good reason… And he gets his wish. Russia will make an agreement with Iran which will make an agreement with the entire area… That a few beach properties are set aside for the Trump family businesses
After all, the cache loses are U.S. tax dollars, not his
Bottom panel should be “Genocide in Gaza AND…”
The number of people who essentially told me that my kid’s life didn’t matter because of Gaza before this election was just disgusting.
And they’re going to stand there as queer people are marched into conversion camps and say it was your fault.
I will put money on the fact no one gets marched into queer camps enmass and forcefully in America
Believe it or not, you being willing to gamble on a child’s life is not an especially good look for you.
Odessa, Texas has bounties. Trans person uses the “wrong” bathroom, they can be sued for 10k by any private citizen. Also a misdemeanor crime.
Nex Benedict was jumped and murdered in a high school bathroom in Oklahoma, and the murder was covered up with cooperation between the Owasso PD and the state board of education.
Many states have already invalidated trans licenses. My state has legally defined me back to female. My drivers license says male. That could probably get me sent to jail.
You have the peak masc username.
What about trans people getting marched one by one into prisons with the wrong gender because they got reported for pissing in a public toilet?
Because it’s already the law to do that in some states. I can tell you more about what happens to trans people in prison if you don’t already know, but suffice to say it’s bad.
If this kind of thing can and does happen in the U.S. already, what in the world makes you think that queer youths are not going to be kidnapped and sent to “conversion camps?”
Does it count if they are minors and have their parents supporting it? Or do you only count if the government officially organizes it?
I mean, we’ve already had conversion therapy camps that families throw their queer or questioning kids into. Who’s to day that’s not a solution dreamed up here: Project 2025
Forgot this part: LGBTQ+ and what they are already doing now: mediamatters
I don’t know why Jordy is no posing the war on Gaza. When both panels should show the yes posing.
