Well yea, countries keep buying nuclear from France because it’s clean, cheap, and they don’t want to suffer the political backlash from the science lacking environmentalists which come forward when they talk about building nuclear on their own land
German green party
Nuclear plants:🤮
Carbon plants (that actually produce more radiation that nuclear plants): 🥰
They have spurred on the solar/wind movement successfully though, albeit whilst using coal as a crutch. Even so, without the greens, alternative energy might never have been a discussion in a country like Germany which is positively obsessed with gas and cars
The problem is replacing nuclear with renewables does nothing to combat climate change. We need to be reducing fossil fuels. At the very least, they should have phased out coal before nuclear. While france was busy reducing its dependence on coal, Germany remains the largest producer of coal in Europe.
You’re certainly right that their handling of nuclear was inefficient for reducing carbon output.
I’m pretty pro nuclear, but I don’t think that really takes away from their success in pushing renewables forward, they were a very early adopter of solar thanks to their very generous subsidies and probably helped fuel its growth at a faster rate, so regardless of their unfortunate paranoia around nuclear, they do deserve some praise. Perfect is the enemy of good, and given the speed the world has responded to climate change, Germanys mixed and painful transition was certainly not the worst.
The nuclear ship had sailed long before the Green Party became part of the current government. While I also think that nuclear power is a much better alternative to coal power plants it’s simply not feasible to revert Germany’s decision when wind and solar is as cheap as it is now.
The problem with solar is going to be scaling it to meet power demands. Never mind the fact that solar companies are cutting down trees to make way for solar fields.
Nuclear energy and hopefully nuclear fusion will be the future
It’s too late to start new nuclear projects. The quickest Gen 3 reactor build in the US was 14 years. So starting now, you’re looking to finish near 2040. And for those 14 years of construction, you’re pumping huge amounts of CO2. Over its lifetime it will emit less CO2 than many other forms of power, but that’s too slow. We need to be reducing emissions now, not reducing emissions in the 2050s and beyond.
What? Is there a good alternative? If we could magically make the world 100% renewable+nuclear in only 14 years that would be amazing I think. It would not solve everything, but sometimes it takes a bit to stop the bleeding before healing can start (carbon capture and planting trees during nuclear construction maybe?)
Is there a faster way?
There was a successful nuclear fusion reaction experiment with a positive energy output just the other day…
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/scientists-repeat-major-nuclear-fusion-breakthrough/
So we’re going to be using nuclear, just in exciting new ways.
Yes. Regulatory overreach has made it 14 years to build nuclear plants. Almost all of which is interminable red tape. We should fix that, not pretend it’s a feature of the technology.
It’s literally never too late to start them. It’s too late for them, alone, to reverse the damage to the climate change but make no mistake that until we’re dead and buried it’s not too late to make more. The KW/h per measurement of CO2 that nuclear plants produce is incomprehensible. It surpasses even renewable energy, that causes pollution from the broken panels and other e-waste. Fission has always been the answer and it needs to be pushed through no matter how fucking late it is so they can then be repurposed into fusion based when we make that advancement.
I like the the Greens, but they actually initiated the phase out the last time they ruled 20 years ago. One of their core ideologies was the opposition of nuclear power.
But they were also for a coal phaseout. They aren’t responsible for how atomic plants got replaced and that the phaseout got changed into specific dates, they implemented a more flexible phaseout.
A later government decided to slowly replace coal plants with gas plants and keep those coal plants in standby for emergencies for some time. Which is what triggered last year, as those standby plants fired up again when gas plants became unreliable.
I’m not familiar with the German politics, but are you saying that Germany got rid of nuclear despite environmentalists?
These decisions are mainly rooted in the peace movement of the 80s (fueled by the nuclear missiles in Germany installed by the US) and the direct experience of Tschernobyl. Its supported by the majority in the public.
The current political decision was made by the more conservative government.
See also: the “Atomkraft? Nein Danke” sticker that has a cartoon picture of the biggest nuclear reactor in the solar system on it. Irony: it’s good for the blood dearie.
Fusion is way better than fission
For starters more Helium really improves the World by facilitating the making of Daffy Duck impressions.
Agreed. There is a problem we have about where to put the fission waste but the actual generation process is cleaner than carbon.
France has been importing more electricity than exporting in 2022 because their nuclear reactors can’t perform in the heat resulting from climate change. And this is more likely to happen again as each year becomes hotter.
I’m not sure where this fetishism for France‘s nuclear energy is coming from.
You’re quoting 2022 because that year >30% of the reactrors were taken offline for maintenance. The French government is also shutting down nuclear reactors due to lack of funding & outdated technology.
This is not an inherant problem with nuclear, but because the French government hasn’t invested since the 70s.
If funding wasn’t cut (due to environmental activists), the output would be more than needed.
Nuclear is still our best bet for combatting climate change and reducing carbon emissions.
Im quoting 2022 because this was last year. As in, the most recent year.
I don’t disagree that we should have phased out coal instead of nuclear first. But what has happened has happened. I do disagree that we need a „nuclear renessaince“ now, because neither the economics nor the timelines work out at this point in time. Solar and wind is cheaper, faster to build, and more flexible as you can iterate on their designs MUCH more quickly than nuclear plants. That’s the main reason why solar panel efficiency is going through the roof.
Why cannibalize the investments in what obviously works?
deleted by creator
The fetishism for nuclear was just imported 1:1 from Reddit
deleted by creator
cheap
It’s literally the most expensive power of any of the major options.
"In December 2020 IEA and OECD NEA published a joint Projected Costs of Generating Electricity study which looks at a very broad range of electricity generating technologies based on 243 power plants in 24 countries. The primary finding was that “low-carbon generation is overall becoming increasingly cost competitive” and “new nuclear power will remain the dispatchable low-carbon technology with the lowest expected costs in 2025”. The report calculated LCOE with assumed 7% discount rate and adjusted for systemic costs of generation.[79] "
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source
The IEA is a bad joke that has been notoriously wrong in its projections for decades. Nobody in the industry takes them seriously.
How so? I am in the industry and everyone I work with take them seriously.
Edit:
Even if you refute predictions made by the IAE, nuclear is still not as expensive as other sources of electricity. For a more specific example, the University of Waterloo released this report analyzing the Ontario grid in 2017.
If you look at Table 1, you will find that nuclear costs between hydro and wind while gas and solar cost more. This is one example but it does illustrate that nuclear is not necessarily the most expensive. Things have improved for renewables since then but I believe they have for nuclear also.
That page shows nuclear being way more expensive than photovoltaic solar with batteries, more expensive than wind power and more expensive than coal. So it exactly backs up my point.
The graph on the global studies page does seem to indicate that. However, if you actually read the data and how the graph was prepared, it uses one dataset for renewables and a different dataset for nuclear and coal. Additionally, these numbers significanly differ from the IEA data which shows that nuclear is one of the least expensive. As I said in a comment below, there are other, more localized studies that show nuclear is one of the cheaper ways to produce electricity. I would hesitate to say that nuclear is the cheapest option since there are different studies with different results, but to claim that it is the most expensive would be just as misguided for the same reasons. At the end of the day, more electricity is needed as countries look to decarbonize there energy needs. Hydro, wind, and solar are effective and renewable but a stable, carbon-free solution is needed where there is insufficient hydro or geothermal and I believe nuclear fits that bill perfectly.
But the IEA is a lobby group. It’s not like their numbers have any credibility. Like I said, nuclear is way more expensive by all numbers except fake ones.
How is it a lobby group? Do you have any sources to back up your claim or is it simply based on your bias because you do not agree with the data they put together? Again, even if you discount their data, there are plenty of other studdies that corroborate the fact that nuclear is not the most expensive method of producing electricity, are all of them somehow wrong? What you need to understand is that there are different factors that can be included which can dramatically change whether one way of producing electricity is better or worse. Nuclear has a high up front capital cost but a very low operating cost per MW. Solar and wind are cheap initially but require replacement every 10 years or more and also generally need a way to store energy if they make up a bulk of the grid. If you factor in the lifecycle and energy storage costs, they are comparable to well designed nuclear plants. I am from ontario, and nuclear has been an incredible benefit to the province.
Yup, just like Vegans, environmentalists come up with an answer they like and find some shakie science to back it up.
liberals and their damn SCIENCE
WTF do “liberals” have to do with “environmentalists?” Liberals love exporting polluting activities to China in the name of “free trade.”
The Nuclear power industry is not closer to science than any other energy generating industry.
LoL, I’m pretty sure believing that nuclear energy is the path forward to a green new world is SCIENCE.
Minimizing the NIMBY effect by corner placing the reactor plant.
Sim City strats FTW!
I, too, like to place my garbage dump on the border so my neighbor can enjoy the aroma.
How many French nuclear plants have melted down?
They had a level 4
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_nucléaire#Accidents_-_Niveau_4
Interestingly I don’t seem to see a level 4 on the English page for France:
It’s possible it’s about the explosion at a 30 years decommissioned plant. That’s the only “France” search result besides a French owned mine.
In 1969!
And 1980 iirc
we like to share :)
Quite literally. It’s a shared project between Belgium and France.
(Unironically) good neighbor indeed. If I was Belgium, I want that sweet nuclear energy.
Just that france has nuclear power plants that are often not well maintained. We had issues with one close to the german boarder as well
Power plants that are not well maintained ? What event are you taking about ?
In their defense there only so many big rivers, round there, and most do function as border
Also, assuming this is the same one that gets posted constantly, it was a joint project between the two countries
deleted by creator
if anything this is a win for belgium since they get all that sweet local electricity production without paying for the nuclear plant.
Not sure if you are joking, but the customer is paying for the plant. And you can be damn sure you’re paying premium prices for imported energy.
nonetheless they benefit from having local production as that reduces the need for electricity from further away, which reduces the amount of transmission losses.
This effect is significant enough that even just rooftop solar in sweden means you’re owed a rebate from the energy company, as you’re saving them money.
Rick: “Morty I’m gonna need you to put these seeds all the way up your ass”
Actually, the nuclear power industry did / does indeed run astroturfing campaigns
Which nuclear power industry? Given the sheer scale of a nuclear power plant project, most research and reactor projects are public projects, with only SMRs seeing any recent interest in the USA. So you think it’s the States that are conducting astroturfing campaigns? The same states that have been sabotaging nuclear power everywhere since Chernobyl? Is there any evidence of this?
For example the “pro-nuclear civil society” in Japan.
The only thing I have found about this is a study which I have to pay 43€ to read.
If you read up on nuclear power online you will find an abundance of websites and groups which offer very one-sided information
You can find that kind of content for about any other subject you can think of. That doesn’t make it proof of astroturfing.
and are tied to the nuclear power industry.
Same question, what is exactly the “nuclear power industry” you’re talking about?
Astroturfing campaigns promoting solar and wind power can be directly linked to the oil industry, as when Jay Anthony Precourt, head of oil and energy start-ups and a major investor in gas, swung a total of $80 million over three years at Stanford University to finance the Precourt Institute for Energy Efficiency, which later published a glowing report on a 100% renewable future. (If you don’t see the link between fossil fuels and renewables, take a look at Germany: when there’s no wind, they burn coal and gas. Fossils are very compatible with renewables.)
Can you find the same with nuclear?
Nuclear fission power had huge investments and substitutions but turned out to not be economically feasible in most cases. There is a lot of money to be lost and made in this industry.
This is factually incorrect. What’s expensive is investing to build a cutting-edge industry, then dismantling it before it becomes profitable under the pressure of public opinion.
The French Court of Auditors has estimated the total cost of French nuclear power at around 130 billion euros between 1960 and 2010, including research, construction and maintenance. At its peak, a 1000MW unit of French nuclear power cost 1.5 billion euros, and the French nuclear industry produced two 900 to 1300MW reactors a year for two decades.
Everything came to an abrupt halt in the 90s, not because it wasn’t profitable, not because it didn’t work, but because the Russians made a mess of their power plant, which didn’t even have the same design as the others, killed a few hundred/thousand people, and traumatized hundreds of millions.
Between scientists there is also no consensus whether nuclear power (in its current application) is a good thing.
There is no definition of “a good thing”.
On the other hand, we know that nuclear power is the least polluting, least resource/space-consuming and safest form of controllable energy.
The increase in nuclear power is an essential of the 4 scenarios of the IPCC reports, and the European Union, based on these reports and other studies, has recognized nuclear power as an energy with a positive impact on the environment. and they incorporated it into the green taxonomy.
For context, wind generally blows eastward across Europe
And in case they accidentally pull a Fukushima, they can just secede that part of the country and say “it’s YOUR problem now, suckers”
Classic french
Belgium actually wanted this plant built
Oh cool, more power to them
deleted by creator
