• OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Well yea, countries keep buying nuclear from France because it’s clean, cheap, and they don’t want to suffer the political backlash from the science lacking environmentalists which come forward when they talk about building nuclear on their own land

    • driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br
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      1 year ago

      German green party

      Nuclear plants:🤮

      Carbon plants (that actually produce more radiation that nuclear plants): 🥰

      • tetris11@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        They have spurred on the solar/wind movement successfully though, albeit whilst using coal as a crutch. Even so, without the greens, alternative energy might never have been a discussion in a country like Germany which is positively obsessed with gas and cars

        • snaf@lemmy.sdf.org
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          1 year ago

          The problem is replacing nuclear with renewables does nothing to combat climate change. We need to be reducing fossil fuels. At the very least, they should have phased out coal before nuclear. While france was busy reducing its dependence on coal, Germany remains the largest producer of coal in Europe.

          • scratchee@feddit.uk
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            1 year ago

            You’re certainly right that their handling of nuclear was inefficient for reducing carbon output.

            I’m pretty pro nuclear, but I don’t think that really takes away from their success in pushing renewables forward, they were a very early adopter of solar thanks to their very generous subsidies and probably helped fuel its growth at a faster rate, so regardless of their unfortunate paranoia around nuclear, they do deserve some praise. Perfect is the enemy of good, and given the speed the world has responded to climate change, Germanys mixed and painful transition was certainly not the worst.

      • avapa@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        The nuclear ship had sailed long before the Green Party became part of the current government. While I also think that nuclear power is a much better alternative to coal power plants it’s simply not feasible to revert Germany’s decision when wind and solar is as cheap as it is now.

        • SMITHandWESSON@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          The problem with solar is going to be scaling it to meet power demands. Never mind the fact that solar companies are cutting down trees to make way for solar fields.

          Nuclear energy and hopefully nuclear fusion will be the future

          • Yendor@reddthat.com
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            1 year ago

            It’s too late to start new nuclear projects. The quickest Gen 3 reactor build in the US was 14 years. So starting now, you’re looking to finish near 2040. And for those 14 years of construction, you’re pumping huge amounts of CO2. Over its lifetime it will emit less CO2 than many other forms of power, but that’s too slow. We need to be reducing emissions now, not reducing emissions in the 2050s and beyond.

            • Kage520@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              What? Is there a good alternative? If we could magically make the world 100% renewable+nuclear in only 14 years that would be amazing I think. It would not solve everything, but sometimes it takes a bit to stop the bleeding before healing can start (carbon capture and planting trees during nuclear construction maybe?)

              Is there a faster way?

            • Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Yes. Regulatory overreach has made it 14 years to build nuclear plants. Almost all of which is interminable red tape. We should fix that, not pretend it’s a feature of the technology.

            • RealFknNito@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              It’s literally never too late to start them. It’s too late for them, alone, to reverse the damage to the climate change but make no mistake that until we’re dead and buried it’s not too late to make more. The KW/h per measurement of CO2 that nuclear plants produce is incomprehensible. It surpasses even renewable energy, that causes pollution from the broken panels and other e-waste. Fission has always been the answer and it needs to be pushed through no matter how fucking late it is so they can then be repurposed into fusion based when we make that advancement.

        • Baŝto@discuss.tchncs.de
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          1 year ago

          I like the the Greens, but they actually initiated the phase out the last time they ruled 20 years ago. One of their core ideologies was the opposition of nuclear power.

          But they were also for a coal phaseout. They aren’t responsible for how atomic plants got replaced and that the phaseout got changed into specific dates, they implemented a more flexible phaseout.

          A later government decided to slowly replace coal plants with gas plants and keep those coal plants in standby for emergencies for some time. Which is what triggered last year, as those standby plants fired up again when gas plants became unreliable.

        • Fjaeger@sopuli.xyz
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          1 year ago

          I’m not familiar with the German politics, but are you saying that Germany got rid of nuclear despite environmentalists?

          • zielgruppe@feddit.de
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            1 year ago

            These decisions are mainly rooted in the peace movement of the 80s (fueled by the nuclear missiles in Germany installed by the US) and the direct experience of Tschernobyl. Its supported by the majority in the public.

            The current political decision was made by the more conservative government.

      • Spendrill@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        See also: the “Atomkraft? Nein Danke” sticker that has a cartoon picture of the biggest nuclear reactor in the solar system on it. Irony: it’s good for the blood dearie.

    • HaiZhung@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      France has been importing more electricity than exporting in 2022 because their nuclear reactors can’t perform in the heat resulting from climate change. And this is more likely to happen again as each year becomes hotter.

      I’m not sure where this fetishism for France‘s nuclear energy is coming from.

      • Obline@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        You’re quoting 2022 because that year >30% of the reactrors were taken offline for maintenance. The French government is also shutting down nuclear reactors due to lack of funding & outdated technology.

        This is not an inherant problem with nuclear, but because the French government hasn’t invested since the 70s.

        If funding wasn’t cut (due to environmental activists), the output would be more than needed.

        Nuclear is still our best bet for combatting climate change and reducing carbon emissions.

        • HaiZhung@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          Im quoting 2022 because this was last year. As in, the most recent year.

          I don’t disagree that we should have phased out coal instead of nuclear first. But what has happened has happened. I do disagree that we need a „nuclear renessaince“ now, because neither the economics nor the timelines work out at this point in time. Solar and wind is cheaper, faster to build, and more flexible as you can iterate on their designs MUCH more quickly than nuclear plants. That’s the main reason why solar panel efficiency is going through the roof.

          Why cannibalize the investments in what obviously works?

    • zik@aussie.zone
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      1 year ago

      cheap

      It’s literally the most expensive power of any of the major options.

      • m3m3lord@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        "In December 2020 IEA and OECD NEA published a joint Projected Costs of Generating Electricity study which looks at a very broad range of electricity generating technologies based on 243 power plants in 24 countries. The primary finding was that “low-carbon generation is overall becoming increasingly cost competitive” and “new nuclear power will remain the dispatchable low-carbon technology with the lowest expected costs in 2025”. The report calculated LCOE with assumed 7% discount rate and adjusted for systemic costs of generation.[79] "

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

        • oyo@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          The IEA is a bad joke that has been notoriously wrong in its projections for decades. Nobody in the industry takes them seriously.

        • zik@aussie.zone
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          1 year ago

          That page shows nuclear being way more expensive than photovoltaic solar with batteries, more expensive than wind power and more expensive than coal. So it exactly backs up my point.

          • m3m3lord@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            The graph on the global studies page does seem to indicate that. However, if you actually read the data and how the graph was prepared, it uses one dataset for renewables and a different dataset for nuclear and coal. Additionally, these numbers significanly differ from the IEA data which shows that nuclear is one of the least expensive. As I said in a comment below, there are other, more localized studies that show nuclear is one of the cheaper ways to produce electricity. I would hesitate to say that nuclear is the cheapest option since there are different studies with different results, but to claim that it is the most expensive would be just as misguided for the same reasons. At the end of the day, more electricity is needed as countries look to decarbonize there energy needs. Hydro, wind, and solar are effective and renewable but a stable, carbon-free solution is needed where there is insufficient hydro or geothermal and I believe nuclear fits that bill perfectly.

            • zik@aussie.zone
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              1 year ago

              But the IEA is a lobby group. It’s not like their numbers have any credibility. Like I said, nuclear is way more expensive by all numbers except fake ones.

              • m3m3lord@lemmy.ca
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                1 year ago

                How is it a lobby group? Do you have any sources to back up your claim or is it simply based on your bias because you do not agree with the data they put together? Again, even if you discount their data, there are plenty of other studdies that corroborate the fact that nuclear is not the most expensive method of producing electricity, are all of them somehow wrong? What you need to understand is that there are different factors that can be included which can dramatically change whether one way of producing electricity is better or worse. Nuclear has a high up front capital cost but a very low operating cost per MW. Solar and wind are cheap initially but require replacement every 10 years or more and also generally need a way to store energy if they make up a bulk of the grid. If you factor in the lifecycle and energy storage costs, they are comparable to well designed nuclear plants. I am from ontario, and nuclear has been an incredible benefit to the province.

    • SMITHandWESSON@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Yup, just like Vegans, environmentalists come up with an answer they like and find some shakie science to back it up.

        • grue@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          WTF do “liberals” have to do with “environmentalists?” Liberals love exporting polluting activities to China in the name of “free trade.”

        • SMITHandWESSON@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          LoL, I’m pretty sure believing that nuclear energy is the path forward to a green new world is SCIENCE.