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- cross-posted to:
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An Israeli air strike has hit al-Ahli hospital in Gaza City where thousands of civilians are seeking medical treatment and shelter from relentless attacks.
Gaza health ministry says at least 500 casualties in hospital blast. A UN-run school housing refugees also struck.
The attack comes a day before US President Joe Biden visits Israel, where he is expected to stress American support for the country.
A planned summit with President Biden in Jordan has been cancelled, the Jordanian government says.
Some 3,000 Palestinians have been killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza since Hamas’s October 7 attack inside Israel, which has killed more than 1,400.
Humor me. As a third party with no side in the fight, what is the correct response from Israel to the massacre of citizens?
Obviously this isn’t it.
So what is the answer, ignoring anything before the inciting attack from Hamas, from either side, what is the cause effect reaction that you would deem appropriate by Israel?
if you move into a man’s home, force him and his kids into the basement, don’t let them leave, deprive them of clean food and water, shoot one of his kids every once in a while, then start annexing the basement and force his family into the crawl space and then after 40 years one of his kids comes out of the crawlspace into the basement and shoots your wife who was throwing a party in the basement what is the proper response?
like, no matter how I think about it maybe you were the one asking for trouble?
apparently 70% of my countrymen think it’s time to clear out that pesky crawlspace full of trouble makers!
Yeah they didn’t move into someone’s house. They have had a continuous presence in the area since biblical times. There was no country of Palestine. Ever. It was always controlled by someone else. Israel came into being by accepting a deal offered. And the international community accepted them as an independent country state. There was already a civil war between the populations living there once the UN plan was passed. Some people left due to the civil war. British withdrew. Israel formed official. Arab countries attacked saying they’d kill all of the Jews there. They did not. Then they did not again. And again. They did, however, in one form or other expel their Jews to Israel.
Did you lift this from my bear analogy the other day? If not, I guess we have eerily similar thought patterns.
Let me try again.
What is the action that you would deem correct and just in response to the attack by Hamas that started this latest series of events?
I do not discount the past, Israel’s culpability in escalation, human rights violations by its military members, and politics that favor them over Palestinians. I do not discount the international error of the two-state solution imposed by external countries.
I am asking, in response to 1400 dead civilians IN THE PRESENT, what any nation’s correct action is as a response. It is easy to decry the current decision, but I have heard little proposals to the contrary of what perfect looks like for an Israeli response.
So, IGNORING WHAT CAME BEFORE THE EVENTS THE ARE CURRENTLY UNFOLDING, what would you have deemed the correct response?
personally i think Israel should wake up, apologize, leave all of palestine and help them rebuild. 0% chance but you did ask!
ignoring what came first is disingenuous. You can pick any arbitrary point during the commission of a crime and make the victim look bad. If my brother punches me and my mom walks in and only sees me punch him is it fair for her to only judge my action and not his? it’s ridiculous on it’s face.
When a court finds that a murderer isn’t mentally competent for a crime the humane thing to do is help them become mentally competent again isn’t it?
These people have been intentionally pushed to the brink of madness. Give them their land back and help them rebuild their society.
Are you talking about Gaza or the West Bank? Gaza relations were not great but actually stabilizing in recent years until this attack. The West Bank, what most people refer to as Palestine is more complicated because of the three districts established during the 1949 armistice.
Arguably, Hamas attacked now precisely because they don’t want relations between Israel and the Arab world to normalize like they have with Egypt and Jordan.
this leaves only two outcomes.
Either be killed by terrorists, or dissolve your entire society and nation state.
Israel would of course not see either of these solutions as options.
I am not being disingenuous, I acknowledged history. I am not blind to the motivations of either party. These latest events were started by choice, when any other action could have been chosen but to behead children in diapers.
According to your answer, the only right act appears to be dissolving their entire country and giving it to the people who kidnapped their people in this latest round of violence. I can’t think this makes sense in any other situation, so it’s can’t here.
Something between doing nothing and what they are doing as middle ground in response has to exist as an option that is acceptable.
If the only option is complete dissolution of a nation state to avoid bloodshed, it is effectively not an option. Propose a solution that isn’t the continued deaths and is not the total dissolution of a nation state, which no nation in earth would agree to.
What exists as an option in response besides these two extremes?
alternatively;
That seems to be you declining to provide an example of a reasonable response then.
see it how you like
Build a new jewrusalem/jewlandia out in the desert. With blackjack, and hookers. Israel gets 3.8 billion a year just from the US. Hire a fuckin contractor that isn’t a defense contractor for once.
lol Lemmy is completely filled with trash you cannot even get a proper answer to your question. The “free palestine” and “think of the children” faction demands Israel stops defending itself and just roll over and die. They cannot provide a workable solution.
I have absolutely no idea what the right course of action would have been. Perhaps holding back on the invasion, and then firing Netanyahu. Then having an actual negotiator in to discuss Gaza / Palestine with the leaders (not Hamas). Maybe giving 1 week to reach an agreement and release hostages, or Israel invades and gloves are off.
The leadership of Gaza is Hamas. Unequivocally.
Hamas was elected to power then pulled the ladder up behind them suspending all future elections.
All officials in the Gaza government are Hamas.
Elections were suspended in the West Bank because there is a real chance Hamas would win an election there today.
This isn’t a case of a tyrannical overlord ruling over the Palestinian people without their consent.
Most supported and still support the organization.
One of the issues is that there are no leaders apart from Hamas in Gaza. It is possible that the majority of the population would want different ones (there is not much evidence of that, but it’s difficult to get that information), but Hamas made sure that there are none.
Negotiating with them would give them reason to take hostages again.
Terrorism definition: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
So if you reward violence with success to political wins, this would give violence a reason to happen more as a tool. This obviously isn’t an answer if you are Israel wanting to prevent your citizen and other nations being killed / violently victimized to force capitulation of your government.
So from their perspective, or any other government of the world, this is a non starter.
I love your comment. Because Israel is what happens when you let the terrorists win. When you reward violence, which let’s more violence be justified as a legitimate means.
Google what was the Haganah, lehi, and Irgun. Israel was founded by paramilitary groups who were, by your very definition, terrorists groups, who committed acts of terror against civilians but were allowed by the international community to win.
They’ll tell you that israel needs to apologize, keel over and die. or at least take some steps towards loosing it’s capacity for self defense.
Realize that their strategy for the past 16 years isn’t working, sign a ceasefire, follow it and get started on peace again?
I don’t think there is a correct response or any intelligent response at all, I think we’re just watching a pattern that will repeat until someone finds a way to lasting peace.
But the usual reply is “well Israel is oppressing Palestine (so they actually struck first/it’s justified)”
Israel has occupied Palestinians for 75 years.
That doesn’t answer my question. Nor is it 100% historically accurate.
How historically accurate would you say it is?
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There is no ‘proper response’, as Israel existing is the reason for the conflict.
Isreal’s proper response was to call them terrorists, garner international support, and continue their genocide against Palestinians.
This didn’t answer my question.
Long story short, there is no proper response besides dissolving the country and leaving. The Israeli government is incentivized to wipe out Palestinians, and whatever decisions they make are to that end.
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If the only proper response is discontinued existence, then you have left no possible response.
Unfortunately, they did with the comment that Israel shouldn’t exist. They are an anti-semite who doesn’t believe the millions of Jewish people who lived in the pre 1948 Palestine deserve a place to live.
When the Jewish state was formed by the UN, five Arab armies invaded, and since that time most of Israel’s neighbors have expressly stated that they want to destroy Israel. Only Egypt and Jordan have recognized their borders, and that was after losing during the 6 day war when Egypt once again threatened Israels existence by cutting off the tiran Straits. When the borders were recognized, Israel returned land they seized during the conflict to Egypt, namely the Sinai peninsula. Twenty some years later, Jordan followed suit.
The remaining neighbors have ceaselessly saber rattled, attacked, and conducted terrorist acts. Just today a Hezbollah general stated that this was a war of existence; either Israel exists or the Arab alliance exists.
Which isn’t to say that I condone the settlers in the West Bank, and other things that Israel has done. But they are a small nation surrounded by religious states that want them destroyed. Back in 2006 Israel learned that disproportionate response is the only thing that seems to work, when Hezbollah attacked and Israel responded with 30 days of shelling Beirut, leaving the Hezbollah leader to infamously say they wouldn’t have attacked if they knew the response would be so drastic.
So I’m all for holding Israel to international standards of warfare. But people who say that “Israel existing is the reason for the conflict” can bugger off as far as I care since they are either an anti-semite, pandering to religious states, or desperately ignorant of world history.