“you’re hurting your cause!!” whines liberal who hates both you and your cause
I started asking questions whenever some right winger would start in with the whole “here’s what you’re doing wrong” routine. “And you think this will help the far left succeed?” or “So you believe that’s the best way to get people to vote for the leftist candidate?” Just messing around since they are obviously not providing legitimate feedback.
Good thing they lost the elections then, right?
In their moral justification, the argument of the lesser evil has played a prominent role. If you are confronted with two evils, the argument runs, it is your duty to opt for the lesser one, whereas it is irresponsible to refuse to choose altogether. Its weakness has always been that those who choose the lesser evil forget quickly that they chose evil.
-Hannah Arendt
I think everyone should pick the best person for the position. But if the only two realistic options are evil and lesser evil. Then I think it’s better if the lesser evil wins than the more evil one.
As seen in last US election, voting for the ideal candidate meant the worse candidate won.
It’s amazing to me that you could read that quote, and your take, unironically, is exactly the sentiment that Arendt was warning about.
You could easily argue that the guys constantly chosing the lesser evil brought that catastrophic discourse shift over us, that made the lesser evil of this election worse than the worse evil of former elections.
I am not from the US, so my insight there might be limited. But here in Germany I started to hate the lesser evil fraction so much. The lesser evil here is now openly representing far right ideologies, activley supporting genocide, made it borderline illegal to critizise genocid, killing refugees at the borders, deporting people into regions were they face immediate lethal threats, initiating harsh social cuts while demonizing the poor and are discussing cooperation with open fascists. They are constantly normalizing open fascism, everday a little more. If Germany slights into fascism again, it will be mostly the lesser evils fault.
Fuck the lesser evil. They became more dangerous than the fascist themselves in many respects.
It was also Hindenburg and von Papen back in the 1930s, the lesser evil, who was paving Hitler the way to power.
edit: Lol, I startet this meaning to write 2-3 sentences, seems the lesser evil caused a writing frenzy in me.
Brain dead take. This whole philosophy of yours falls apart in the real world- look at the last US elections. We’re speed running reversal of 100+ years of progress with this idiot, where we would have incremental change forward still happening if people like you had decided to get off their high horse and vote. Not saying you personally were voting, just your mindset was one that fucked us over.
This whole theory has been 100% proven by the current shitshow here in Germany. Everything I wrote has already happened and fascists much, much worse than Trump are currently the first among polls in Germany as a result.
And disproven by the shitshow in the US.
Oh my, if you had stopped voting the lesser evil 20 years ago, you’d not have Trump now. Also, asshole move to derail the discussion by getting impertinent “brain dead” and starting to downvote, simply because you disagree (blocking you for that, as it annoys me).
Factually wrong. We would have had Al Gore instead of Bush, if people voted for lesser evils. We wouldn’t have had Nixon or Regan if people voted for lesser evils. Don’t comment on our politics when you know nothing of them.
“Erm acturally thats tankie propaganda, dont you know our Good Guy Candidate™ isnt Fascist he’s actually Fascist Lite™ which is totally different. Yes he’s going to blindly support genocide, yes he’s going to support imperialism, and no he wont do a damn thing to help the workers, but you see these silly graphs we made up say the economy is going and therefore our guy is qualified. Now blindly support the candidate and the party or I’ll downvote you and call you a Tankie or a Russian bot.”
- Average .world user
Democrats are center right these days.
Always have been.
I don’t think this is correct. There was a marked post-Reagan shift to the right. Sure, they were never socialists, but decades ago they at least tried to do something for the working class.
I’d argue them being centre-left between 1929 and 1973, from the start of the great depression up until the petrodollar agreement and Bretton Woods II, out of fear communism winning during that time.
FDR was in that era and was pretty far left. Look at the tax rates he set in motion, the fuckers get mad when they get taxed over 90%. FDR gets elected four terms, has five assassination attempts and many more plots and starts the economy on the path to recovery after the Republicans decimated it with tatmriffs.
Us politics isn’t about economics anyway, especially when you’ve got Republicans raising taxes sky high and restricting free trade. It’s about social and cultural issues more than ever these days.
More like very much into the right
You don’t understand, their support of lesser fascism is necessary to avoid the greater fascism, so by opposing them you’re actually supporting the greater fascism
I’d accept a viable alternative. Wake me up when we have one.
whoops, world ended
Damn, if only if I had been more moral.
proactive
Show me how I’m not being proactive enough.
Weren’t you being facetious?
If the world was ending, it wouldn’t be because we lacked morals but because we lacked action. I think we agree on what’s moral, we just disagree about how much of what action is needed.
Oh yeah, you’re right. I lost the thread. Don’t mind msorry. Im seriously sorry.
Yup. We need lesser of two in red districts and vote for our ideals in our safe districts to move the part as a whole.
there you go using mathematics and democracy
neither of these things work on .ml
they have their own fantasy science
You’re replying to a dbzer0 btw.
I’m just so impressed by them. Forgoing all forms of capitalism so they are not totally responsible for the outcomes of capitalist society. It’s a principled stance but living in stateless, technology absent, collectives outside the rule of the government is not an easy life.
i love the fact that their science says that the fact that their system has never worked proves that it will surely work next time
i think i prefer real science
I was talking about this with my wife. I’d live in a socialist or communist run government, at least the one they fantasize about, but I would never live long enough to see it enacted, as leftists envision.
So in my mind I have two choices that aren’t exactly mutually exclusive:
1.) Openly support communism without thought about what the final outcome of that may actually be because I won’t be alive to guide it (as if I’d have much say).
2.) Just keep working to make the world I live in better
Both are fine options and I can do both but they would have me chose the former and exclude the latter.
Openly support communism without thought about what the final outcome of that may actually be
Just keep working to make the world I live in better
They’re the same picture.
You sound so sure. I don’t share that level of delusion.
no notes
The only actual job of the DNC is to suck up all the space and oxygen that a real left needs to grow, and rubber stamp every oppressive police measure they think they have to in order to secure the profits of the rich at the expense of all other life on Earth. The best of them are self-deluding soft exterminationists at this point, and the bulk of the party has apparently dispensed with even that fig leaf and embraced a kind of haughty, blue fascist schadenfreude regarding the people it failed to browbeat into supporting genocide. It’s genuinely the most disgusting thing I’ve ever seen in my life after the killing itself. The Democratic party is pathologically incapable of taking any responsibility for it’s action, has no desire to change anything, and is actively, dangerously hostile to all living beings, first and foremost human beings outside America. Nothing better will be allowed to grow unless it is thoroughly dismantled alongside the Republican party and most of the rest of the US government.
Fuck the lesser of two evils. I choose good.
“Purity politics and single issue voters are so toxic! All I said is we need to support an active genocide, fund more wars, keep kids in cages, ignore COVID, and do nothing about the cost of living going up with wages going down. Why does the left want to alienate people like me?!”
DEMS: You have to understand we need to eat the shit. If we dont eat the shit the other guy is going to smear it on your face and the faces of your children. So, you see, eating the shit is necessary so that we dont have to smear it over more people’s faces.
Me: how the fuck are the only choices shit? Why dont we just not eat the shit and not have everyone horrified of us?
They’ve somehow managed to convince a stunningly large number of gullible people, that you need to eat shit to survive, or that its harm reduction or something…
Harm reduction is eating 15 pounds of shit, because the next guy will make you eat 16 pounds of shit. If you want a dental dam, you’re unrealistic.
Because someone has to eat the shit
*the poors must eat the shit.
Trickle Down used be called “Horse and Sparrow Economics.” As in the horses eat the grain, and sparrows peck their meals from the horseshit.
Not dividing the left, just consolidating the right
True. Sorry, your ideology lost so hard that half of it was Trump’s 1st term policy. Concede to the left for once in your god damn lives or suffer liberals.
Concede to the left for once in your god damn lives or suffer liberals.
They’ll choose suffering. They love Trump, its why they didn’t arrest him. He doesn’t hurt the bottom line, just the poors, browns, and queers.
When a casual acquaintance asks my political leaning, I say Democrat to keep things simple. But, really, I’m a Bernie guy. I don’t want to talk politics, and trying to explain that Democrats are actually center-right is just too much effort to put into… well, just about everyone nowadays.
Why don’t you just say progressive then seems to sum it up
Okay, but Sanders isn’t on the left, either, despite calling himself a socialist. Sanders will say that It’s OK to Be Angry About Capitalism, and he’ll complain about “crony” capitalism and “über” capitalism, but as a liberal he’ll never question capitalism as such. He’ll never question private ownership of the means of production.
Socialism != Communism though
It’s okay to say you’re a socialist but too not like communism.
I for one really like socialist policies like national healthcare which I get in the UK etc. But I don’t think full communism is the way to go for a modern society. Plus the track record of every time a country tries to head towards full communism, the door is left wide open for a dictator, and someone takes it.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of differences between socialism and communism.
Modes of production aside, socialism is just the transition period between capitalism and communism but does not have fundamentally different goals from communism. The goal of socialism is to reach communism. The differentiation is just a matter of how far society has progressed in that transition and their modes of production. Socialists are communists. Any differentiation outside of the above context is colloquial or otherwise a result of the uninformed misusing the terms as you have.
Nationalized healthcare in the UK != Socialism and != a socialist policy, it is a social/welfare program. Social/welfare programs are agnostic of modes of production, which is why they can exist in both socialist and capitalist economies.
Please refer to the socialism entry on Prolewiki as well as the modes of production link I added above. This is one of the most commonly confused things about socialism and communism. If you really want to say you don’t like the idea of communism, you should at least be informed about what it is you don’t like and don’t think applies to our modern society. These are short articles that collectively take <5 minutes to read through.
What you are advocating for is social democracy.
4·7 hours agoMrScottyTay cannot see your comment becuaee shit.just.works has defederated from lemmygrad.
Shame. Thanks for the heads up!
Uk is monarchist, not socialist
Because he’s a politician and he understands that his rhetoric has to ramp up slowly to convince his audience. Go to your local pub/bar and say that to someone that isn’t a terminally online ML, see how they react.
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They’re certainly more trustworthy than Liberals and completely better in every way to that fascist orange pig.
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I’d argue that your average communist is moral and trustworthy right up until the moment they get any power, then they are just corrupt(able) politicians, ready and able to fuck over group A to benefit group B, who they happen to favor more this week (decisions must be made, after all!). No system is perfect, and definitely no individual.
Big picture view: The scales will tip every now and then, but it’s ultimately survival of the fittest system that wins, with none existing in isolation - there are always external forces at play.
With that in mind, I’d put my money on more limited socialist-style-carve-outs like single payer healthcare in the US, more rent controls and housing subsidies, slightly better employee protections. Just enough to placate the masses, while the ruling class mostly continues as before. Even this will require a massive effort. Post-republicans, of course.
Anarchy is not left in the US unless they’ve all of a sudden come around on social programs.
As an Anarcho-Syndicalist we dont support government owned social programs because we prefer community based and worker ran solutions to issues like housing, food, and education. Furthermore most social ills that exist today are a direct or indirect effect of capitalism, the problems that cannot be solved by simply destroying capitalism can be solved with more syndicates.
This is why I love lemmy.
I get all angry on someone’s comment, and someone else has already made my point, and better. We’re even doing mutual aid in comments!
Sharing information is the greatest form of mutual aid :3
Welfare capitalism is not the left; it’s the leftmost part of the right. The left is socialism. Anarchists are socialists. Liberals are not.
The American Libertarian sects tend to loosely regard themselves as anarchist, which is frustrating as all hell.
Anarcho-capitalism is opportunistic enough to co-opt anything.
Anarcho-capitalism is such an oxymoron too, capitalism is inherently an unjust hierarchy
capitalism itself does that pretty well
come around on social programs.
Wat.
Anarchists are the ones who are consistently making social programs from scratch. Direct action is and has always been about feeding people as well as sabotaging bulldozers.
Yup, mutal aid and communal efforts are the cornerstones of real anarchism.
i think they’re conflating anarchists with “anarcho”-capitalists
“Anarcho”-Capitalists are as Anarchist as Capitalist-“Libertarians” are acturally Libertarian
well its the most left wing party in the US that has a chance of winning
Even when the Democratic party does win, the working class still loses.
📺 Why the Democratic Party CANNOT and WILL NOT be Reformed
Democrats would rather lose to a Republican, to a conservative, to a fascist, to Trump, than address the material conditions of the American people.
Democrats are pro-nazi, pro-genocide, pro-police, pro-prison, pro-concentration camps, pro-deportations, pro-tariffs, pro-landlord, anti-healthcare, anti-worker, anti-trans, anti-gay, and anti-women. In what world are they even remotely left wing?
pro nazi? i think i accidentily entered a conspiracy sub, my bad chief
they support the IDF
They openly and fiercely support azov nazis
That user seems to be a pro-EU Dutch liberal lol. It wouldn’t surprise me if they smugly pretend Ukraine doesn’t have a nazi problem.
Those who downplay the role of neonazis in e.g. Ukraine are usually neonazis themselves. Funny how EU governments pretend to “struggle” to deal with them but openly facilitate their existence at the same time.
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You do realize that DSA candidates are fairly successful (to varying degrees of positive outcomes) regionally, and to a lesser extent PSL though they are further left.
It is this mindset from liberals such as yourself that actually stops good things from happening.
Also if the Democratic party keeps eating shit to/failing to accomplishing anything in the face of the open fascist party I don’t trust them to do anything good ever. You also discount all the marginalized people actively harmed by their right wing policies (and they are very much a right wing party).
Being left of reps doesn’t make you left.
no, but it unfortunatly is the only option for leftists in the US (or revolution cough cough)
Years of lesser of two evil voting has sent us to the lesser of two genocides, and the US picked the bigger genocide anyway. How long are you going to imagine that as being a viable strategy? How many genocide only elections will it take?
History will view lesser evil voters the same way they veiw ww2 German citizens who were just doing as they’re told.
if Democrats are the “only option” then leftists have no option.
Democrats are losers even when they win, so might as well vote for the “actually leftist” parties instead. they’ll lose the election, but Dems lose after they win.
if leftists vote for a representative cuz “they can win”, but when they win they don’t represent leftists, why should leftists vote for them?
fuuuuck that shit.
Dems suck, they think/act like they know best. They tell us they’re gonna do what they’re gonna do anyway and that we need to follow em like good employees or kiddos. no thanks, i don’t need "reps"like that, they can eat shit
I’m good continuing to vote 3rd party. ill take my L with pride rather than vote for those professional losers ever again
My take from the person that you are replying to is that they support Fetterman
Yeah the most pro Nazi democrat of them all. Er go I have no choice but assume this person is just a fascist that doesn’t like the optics of republicans except when, of course, they apparently do.
🎤he lies and says he’s a leftist man
Can’t vote for fettermaaaaan
if he’s a color, it’s deep R red
Can’t vote for fetterman 🎶
Having a chance of winning means you are on the right, that’s the whole thing
Just like the pit of infinite despair and spiked dildos is technically different from the pit of infinite spiked dildos and despair; being to the left of republicans because you want to burn orphans for warmth instead of fun does not make you left wing nor a good choice.
And they do nothing for the left when they do win - fuck them.
lotta asterisks in that sentence lol
