Evaluating groups based on their goals rather than their methods is a problem. The Far Left wants everyone’s needs met, but historically (and even today in places like China) end up putting a bunch of people in camps and gulags to achieve that goal, squashing dissents to meet that goal, and banning the practicing of religions to meet that goal, kill political dissidents to meet that goal.
If the Left wants to win those Centrists they need to assert their belief in individual rights; they need to disavow the Socialists and Communists of the past and present who implemented those horrible things. When you have prominent American leftists like Bernie on record praising Venezuela; praising the USSR etc… it makes them appear equivalent.
If you live in the US, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Canada Western Europe etc… you are living in the closest thing to a Utopia the world has ever known.
Listening to the far left to see if you like leftist ideas it like listening to the far right to see if you like conservative ideas. Both are just going to tell you that everyone needs to die.
Try talking to a non-crazy proponent of an ideology before you come to a conclusion.
Listening to the far left to see if you like leftist ideas it like listening to the far right to see if you like conservative ideas.
I don’t know if listening to prominent politicians like Bernie Sanders who is the defacto leader of the left wing movement in the US qualifies as talking to someone who is “far left”. He seems pretty representative of that movement.
Here’s one of many stories discussing his 1980s era praise of the USSR. I suggest working the google for more, plentiful links.
Sander’s support for the USSR was pretty broad, full throated and unqualified. And he was very vocal about it for a long time. It wasn’t until a decade and a half after the USSR fell as he became a Presidential candidate that he started to walk back his support.
In the modern era he has had similar support for Casto era Cuba and Chavez era Venezuela.
The closest thing this article has to a quote of Bernie Sanders was.
Sanders was amazed at the open “self-criticism” of his Soviet hosts, who admitted that the USSR was 10 or 15 years behind America in medical technology.
Which is not necessarily praising the ideology of the USSR. Just that self-criticism is not something you would see in a government like the USSR and it was refreshing.
Googling: “What is Bernie Sanders position on USSR” gets me:
Sanders has often emphasized the difference between his views as a democratic socialist and communist dogma, noting that he supports democratic elections and business enterprises that were inimical to the Soviet system.
I can see how a lot of people can mistakenly thing Bernie Sanders has a full throated positive option of the USSR because of all the propaganda. Remember if Bernie Sanders says something like “I like that the USSR provides health care for it’s citizens” or “I like that Casto era Cuba has the highest literacy rates in the world”, that does not mean that Bernie Sanders is in favor of doing everything that the USSR or Casto era Cuba has done. I didn’t search for Chavez era Venezuela because USSR and Cuba things seem like a bust and I just assumed that the Venezuela thing would be more of the same. If not, let me know.
If you have a quote from Bernie Sanders saying specifically we should become authoritarian or something like that. I would like to know about it.
Yes Bernie, the defacto thought leader of the “normal” left wing in the United States, has offered wide support for the USSR, Venezula, Cuba and other Socialists dictatorships; but he’s never explicitly said that we should become authoritarians; he’s just supported the policies, outcomes and goals of the nations that left wing authoritarians have built. So it’s completely unreasonable for Centrits in America to worry that he’d support a left wing authoritarian?
Think about it like this. Most people think boy scouts in the US are a good thing right? Let’s say we didn’t have boy scouts. And some guy said, “Hey, Nazi Germany had boy scouts and that did a lot of good things, and some bad things. Let’s make something like that, but not do the bad stuff”. Using your logic, you would say, “This guy is a Nazi because boy scouts are a Nazi thing and this will lead the US to become fascist and authoritarian”. But the thing is, you can create boy scouts without the fascism. Just like you can create single payer health care without an authoritarian leader, and you can create high literacy rates without being communist or whatever Cuba was.
I mean, if you can explain how single payer health care and literacy programs lead to authoritarian outcomes. I am very interested in hearing about that because I can’t see it.
P.S. I don’t think Bernie is the defacto though leader of the “normal” left wing, but I think he is close enough.
Think about it like this. Most people think boy scouts in the US are a good thing right? Let’s say we didn’t have boy scouts. And some guy said, “Hey, Nazi Germany had boy scouts and that did a lot of good things, and some bad things. Let’s make something like that, but not do the bad stuff”. Using your logic, you would say, “This guy is a Nazi because boy scouts are a Nazi thing and this will lead the US to become fascist and authoritarian”
What if the guy trying to set up the Boy Scouts regularly called themselves a fascist? Bernie, AOC and others in that sphere have “leaned in” to the Socialist label. Using your logic if a Fascist was like those “Nazi’s Boy Scouts did good shit we should do that same shit.” Would you consider it reasonable to worry about that movement becoming more widely fascist?
I mean, if you can explain how single payer health care and literacy programs lead to authoritarian outcomes. I am very interested in hearing about that because I can’t see it.
Remember when Bernie was the Senate’s overviewer of the VA, the largest Single Payer Healthcare system in North America? And he called reports given to his office of the wait list scandal (where the VA would internationally and systemically let vets die without care to avoid caring for them) a right wing conspiracy and dismissed them. Which prolonged the time before the scandal was dealt with.
That immediate belief that “things that go against my world view are anti-socialist conspiracies” is exactly the pattern that causes the societal decline in Socialist societies. And that’s the mindset that causes those societies to jail and punish people bringing complaints or opposing views rather than attempting to improve their societies.
So it’s not, single payer healthcare causes authoritarian societies. It’s centralized control of formerly private production administered by people with a Socialist mindset causes increasingly authoritarian societies.
Evaluating groups based on their goals rather than their methods is a problem. The Far Left wants everyone’s needs met, but historically (and even today in places like China) end up putting a bunch of people in camps and gulags to achieve that goal, squashing dissents to meet that goal, and banning the practicing of religions to meet that goal, kill political dissidents to meet that goal.
If the Left wants to win those Centrists they need to assert their belief in individual rights; they need to disavow the Socialists and Communists of the past and present who implemented those horrible things. When you have prominent American leftists like Bernie on record praising Venezuela; praising the USSR etc… it makes them appear equivalent.
Reductionist, I too would like to live in Utopia.
If you live in the US, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Canada Western Europe etc… you are living in the closest thing to a Utopia the world has ever known.
Listening to the far left to see if you like leftist ideas it like listening to the far right to see if you like conservative ideas. Both are just going to tell you that everyone needs to die.
Try talking to a non-crazy proponent of an ideology before you come to a conclusion.
I don’t know if listening to prominent politicians like Bernie Sanders who is the defacto leader of the left wing movement in the US qualifies as talking to someone who is “far left”. He seems pretty representative of that movement.
Did Bernie Sanders praise the USSR or want to put people in the gulags? I don’t remember him ever doing that. Got a link?
Here’s one of many stories discussing his 1980s era praise of the USSR. I suggest working the google for more, plentiful links.
Sander’s support for the USSR was pretty broad, full throated and unqualified. And he was very vocal about it for a long time. It wasn’t until a decade and a half after the USSR fell as he became a Presidential candidate that he started to walk back his support.
In the modern era he has had similar support for Casto era Cuba and Chavez era Venezuela.
The closest thing this article has to a quote of Bernie Sanders was.
Which is not necessarily praising the ideology of the USSR. Just that self-criticism is not something you would see in a government like the USSR and it was refreshing.
Googling: “What is Bernie Sanders position on USSR” gets me:
I can see how a lot of people can mistakenly thing Bernie Sanders has a full throated positive option of the USSR because of all the propaganda. Remember if Bernie Sanders says something like “I like that the USSR provides health care for it’s citizens” or “I like that Casto era Cuba has the highest literacy rates in the world”, that does not mean that Bernie Sanders is in favor of doing everything that the USSR or Casto era Cuba has done. I didn’t search for Chavez era Venezuela because USSR and Cuba things seem like a bust and I just assumed that the Venezuela thing would be more of the same. If not, let me know.
If you have a quote from Bernie Sanders saying specifically we should become authoritarian or something like that. I would like to know about it.
So your argument is:
Yes Bernie, the defacto thought leader of the “normal” left wing in the United States, has offered wide support for the USSR, Venezula, Cuba and other Socialists dictatorships; but he’s never explicitly said that we should become authoritarians; he’s just supported the policies, outcomes and goals of the nations that left wing authoritarians have built. So it’s completely unreasonable for Centrits in America to worry that he’d support a left wing authoritarian?
No, your interpretation is reactionary.
Think about it like this. Most people think boy scouts in the US are a good thing right? Let’s say we didn’t have boy scouts. And some guy said, “Hey, Nazi Germany had boy scouts and that did a lot of good things, and some bad things. Let’s make something like that, but not do the bad stuff”. Using your logic, you would say, “This guy is a Nazi because boy scouts are a Nazi thing and this will lead the US to become fascist and authoritarian”. But the thing is, you can create boy scouts without the fascism. Just like you can create single payer health care without an authoritarian leader, and you can create high literacy rates without being communist or whatever Cuba was.
I mean, if you can explain how single payer health care and literacy programs lead to authoritarian outcomes. I am very interested in hearing about that because I can’t see it.
P.S. I don’t think Bernie is the defacto though leader of the “normal” left wing, but I think he is close enough.
What if the guy trying to set up the Boy Scouts regularly called themselves a fascist? Bernie, AOC and others in that sphere have “leaned in” to the Socialist label. Using your logic if a Fascist was like those “Nazi’s Boy Scouts did good shit we should do that same shit.” Would you consider it reasonable to worry about that movement becoming more widely fascist?
Remember when Bernie was the Senate’s overviewer of the VA, the largest Single Payer Healthcare system in North America? And he called reports given to his office of the wait list scandal (where the VA would internationally and systemically let vets die without care to avoid caring for them) a right wing conspiracy and dismissed them. Which prolonged the time before the scandal was dealt with.
That immediate belief that “things that go against my world view are anti-socialist conspiracies” is exactly the pattern that causes the societal decline in Socialist societies. And that’s the mindset that causes those societies to jail and punish people bringing complaints or opposing views rather than attempting to improve their societies.
So it’s not, single payer healthcare causes authoritarian societies. It’s centralized control of formerly private production administered by people with a Socialist mindset causes increasingly authoritarian societies.