Think about it like this. Most people think boy scouts in the US are a good thing right? Let’s say we didn’t have boy scouts. And some guy said, “Hey, Nazi Germany had boy scouts and that did a lot of good things, and some bad things. Let’s make something like that, but not do the bad stuff”. Using your logic, you would say, “This guy is a Nazi because boy scouts are a Nazi thing and this will lead the US to become fascist and authoritarian”. But the thing is, you can create boy scouts without the fascism. Just like you can create single payer health care without an authoritarian leader, and you can create high literacy rates without being communist or whatever Cuba was.
I mean, if you can explain how single payer health care and literacy programs lead to authoritarian outcomes. I am very interested in hearing about that because I can’t see it.
P.S. I don’t think Bernie is the defacto though leader of the “normal” left wing, but I think he is close enough.
Think about it like this. Most people think boy scouts in the US are a good thing right? Let’s say we didn’t have boy scouts. And some guy said, “Hey, Nazi Germany had boy scouts and that did a lot of good things, and some bad things. Let’s make something like that, but not do the bad stuff”. Using your logic, you would say, “This guy is a Nazi because boy scouts are a Nazi thing and this will lead the US to become fascist and authoritarian”
What if the guy trying to set up the Boy Scouts regularly called themselves a fascist? Bernie, AOC and others in that sphere have “leaned in” to the Socialist label. Using your logic if a Fascist was like those “Nazi’s Boy Scouts did good shit we should do that same shit.” Would you consider it reasonable to worry about that movement becoming more widely fascist?
I mean, if you can explain how single payer health care and literacy programs lead to authoritarian outcomes. I am very interested in hearing about that because I can’t see it.
Remember when Bernie was the Senate’s overviewer of the VA, the largest Single Payer Healthcare system in North America? And he called reports given to his office of the wait list scandal (where the VA would internationally and systemically let vets die without care to avoid caring for them) a right wing conspiracy and dismissed them. Which prolonged the time before the scandal was dealt with.
That immediate belief that “things that go against my world view are anti-socialist conspiracies” is exactly the pattern that causes the societal decline in Socialist societies. And that’s the mindset that causes those societies to jail and punish people bringing complaints or opposing views rather than attempting to improve their societies.
So it’s not, single payer healthcare causes authoritarian societies. It’s centralized control of formerly private production administered by people with a Socialist mindset causes increasingly authoritarian societies.
What if the guy trying to set up the Boy Scouts regularly called themselves a fascist?
Well, if they called themselves a fascist or did things with fascist outcomes I would be very concerned. I would probably try to vote that guy out or try some other way to get them removed and hope someone else could create a boy scouts program with out being fascist.
Remember when Bernie was the Senate’s overviewer of the VA, the largest Single Payer Healthcare system in North America? And he called reports given to his office of the wait list scandal (where the VA would internationally and systemically let vets die without care to avoid caring for them) a right wing conspiracy and dismissed them. Which prolonged the time before the scandal was dealt with.
Is your position that Bernie hates all US Vets and wants them to die? If so, how does killing vets help get the US to socialism? If anything, it makes Bernie look really bad.
So it’s not, single payer healthcare causes authoritarian societies. It’s centralized control of formerly private production administered by people with a Socialist mindset causes increasingly authoritarian societies.
How does centralized control government control of things result in authoritarian societies? I would agree with you, if we didn’t have a democracy, is that what you are getting at?
Well, if they called themselves a fascist or did things with fascist outcomes I would be very concerned. I would probably try to vote that guy out or try some other way to get them removed and hope someone else could create a boy scouts program with out being fascist.
In this instance, the people doing the needful are calling themselves socialists.Hence the reason the centrists are concerned.
Is your position that Bernie hates all US Vets and wants them to die? If so, how does killing vets help get the US to socialism? If anything, it makes Bernie look really bad.
My point is that Bernie believes in socialism so much that he’s willing to ignore US Vets dying
How does centralized control government control of things result in authoritarian societies? I would agree with you, if we didn’t have a democracy, is that what you are getting at?
Centralizing control centralizes control. It creates one single point of failure to create an authoritarian society. Venezuela is currently experiencing how well democracies protect from authoritarians.
My point is that Bernie believes in socialism so much that he’s willing to ignore US Vets dying
If Bernie cared about socialism so much he wouldn’t have ignored the US Vets dying. That made him and anything he stood for look really bad, if anything you could say that Bernie doing this was an OP against leftism.
Centralizing control centralizes control. It creates one single point of failure to create an authoritarian society. Venezuela is currently experiencing how well democracies protect from authoritarians.
Ok, so it sounds like your definition of authoritarian is any power given to any government. You don’t just have a problem with socialism. You have a problem with democracy as well.
So then do you dislike everyone? Leftists, Centrists, and Conservatives? Democrats, Republicans, and Liberals? Are these all authoritarians?
If Bernie cared about socialism so much he wouldn’t have ignored the US Vets dying. That made him and anything he stood for look really bad, if anything you could say that Bernie doing this was an OP against leftism.
Sander’s is likely the most sincere public figure in his support of his policies. It’s clear to me, and everyone who watches him (even those who are in opposition to him) that he truly cares and believes in the causes he supports. Especially those that are part of his core platform.
If your plan is to “no true Scotsman” Sanders I can assure you that not only is that an “incorrect” position to have; but it’s absolutely not one that will be seen as believable by the Centrists in the top level meme.
Ok, so it sounds like your definition of authoritarian is any power given to any government. You don’t just have a problem with socialism.
Every form of government comes with a risk of an Authoritarian takeover. Certain actions (like centralization vs. decentralization being just one of many things that helps decide that). But Socialism explicitly calls for creating a heavily centralize givernment that makes it very straightforward for a dictatorship to arise. Quashing the sort of dissent needed to avoid dictatorship and even going as far as endorsing the idea of a “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” to modify society into the ideal Communist population.
In a sense you’re correct that I have problems with most forms of governence when evaluating the chance of an authoritarian taking over. But Socialism endorses that so it’s pretty well at the top of the list.
Sander’s is likely the most sincere public figure in his support of his policies…
I agree that Sanders is a democratic socialist. I am confused as to why you brought this incident up then. I thought you were trying to prove that Sanders was an authoritarian, but it seems like we both agree that this was a mistake he made and not some outcome that he wanted to happen or that was aligned with his ideology.
But Socialism explicitly calls for creating a heavily centralize givernment
It’s not clear to me that Socialism explicitly calls for that, maybe I have missed that. But Bernie is a Democratic Socialist. I understand this to mean that democracy would be used to create the laws, not an authoritarian. A similar concept to what the US uses today.
I agree that Sanders is a democratic socialist. I am confused as to why you brought this incident up then. I thought you were trying to prove that Sanders was an authoritarian, but it seems like we both agree that this was a mistake he made and not some outcome that he wanted to happen or that was aligned with his ideology.
Emphasis added by me. I’m saying that to a Centrist (and honestly to myself too). Sander’s actions to dismiss problems in a desired government program is aligned with his ideology. And a viewing of the record of Socialism and Socialist thought has seen that same patter arise over and over again.
It’s not clear to me that Socialism explicitly calls for that, maybe I have missed that. But Bernie is a Democratic Socialist. I understand this to mean that democracy would be used to create the laws, not an authoritarian.
Some OG Source but the context here is, after Das Kapital. The Socialist ideology takes off. Movements in Marx’s lifetime to “vote in” Socialism arose, in this instance in Germany. Marx criticizes this attempt instead of advocating for revolution and dictatorial control exercised by a smaller group of Socialist leaders eg. the “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” (wikipedia summary that’s easier reading).
Capitalism is a system that’s designed to orchestrate the economy of a state. It offers some suggestions for the content of its society and the organization of its government but it is largely agnostic. And has been successfully used alongside Dictatorships, Republics, and Monarchs alike. Socialism dictates not just the economy of a state, but the makeup and mores of its society along with the organization of its Government. There are many modern Socialists who are led to believe that Socialism is compatible with a modern, Western society and Republic; but it pretty explicitly rejects it. Bernie, I believe, is one of those people. But when given power he exercised that power in the same fashion that non-Democratic Socialists of the past have done. That should be concerning to all people, including Centrists.
No need to apologies, I hope things are going well.
Sander’s actions to dismiss problems in a desired government program is aligned with his ideology.
So your saying Sanders has an anti-government ideology? To say another way, Sanders want to maximize the amount of dismissed problems in the government? I mean maybe, but I am not buying it because he then worked to pass the Veterans Access, Choice and Accountability Act. Why fix something you broke intentionally? I also don’t see how this is a step towards becoming an authoritarian leader. Trump is doing way better at becoming an authoritarian leader than Sanders and he isn’t even trying.
Some OG Source but the context here is, after Das Kapital.
For the sake of this discussion I will agree with you that the original concept of Socialism required an authoritarian leader. Bernie doesn’t claim to be a Socialist, he claims to be a Democratic Socialist.
Capitalism is a system that’s designed to orchestrate the economy of a state.
I don’t understand why we are talking about Capitalism. Did Bernie say he would get rid of it if he could?
But when given power he exercised that power in the same fashion that non-Democratic Socialists of the past have done.
Yes, if Bernie was authoritarian, I would agree. But no one knows that except Bernie. Any political leader can be a sleeper authoritarian. Even George Washington could have been an authoritarian and just waited too long to do anything about it. I can only work on what a leader has said and done, not what is secretly in their head. I haven’t heard or seen anything from Bernie that indicates he is authoritarian.
No, your interpretation is reactionary.
Think about it like this. Most people think boy scouts in the US are a good thing right? Let’s say we didn’t have boy scouts. And some guy said, “Hey, Nazi Germany had boy scouts and that did a lot of good things, and some bad things. Let’s make something like that, but not do the bad stuff”. Using your logic, you would say, “This guy is a Nazi because boy scouts are a Nazi thing and this will lead the US to become fascist and authoritarian”. But the thing is, you can create boy scouts without the fascism. Just like you can create single payer health care without an authoritarian leader, and you can create high literacy rates without being communist or whatever Cuba was.
I mean, if you can explain how single payer health care and literacy programs lead to authoritarian outcomes. I am very interested in hearing about that because I can’t see it.
P.S. I don’t think Bernie is the defacto though leader of the “normal” left wing, but I think he is close enough.
What if the guy trying to set up the Boy Scouts regularly called themselves a fascist? Bernie, AOC and others in that sphere have “leaned in” to the Socialist label. Using your logic if a Fascist was like those “Nazi’s Boy Scouts did good shit we should do that same shit.” Would you consider it reasonable to worry about that movement becoming more widely fascist?
Remember when Bernie was the Senate’s overviewer of the VA, the largest Single Payer Healthcare system in North America? And he called reports given to his office of the wait list scandal (where the VA would internationally and systemically let vets die without care to avoid caring for them) a right wing conspiracy and dismissed them. Which prolonged the time before the scandal was dealt with.
That immediate belief that “things that go against my world view are anti-socialist conspiracies” is exactly the pattern that causes the societal decline in Socialist societies. And that’s the mindset that causes those societies to jail and punish people bringing complaints or opposing views rather than attempting to improve their societies.
So it’s not, single payer healthcare causes authoritarian societies. It’s centralized control of formerly private production administered by people with a Socialist mindset causes increasingly authoritarian societies.
Well, if they called themselves a fascist or did things with fascist outcomes I would be very concerned. I would probably try to vote that guy out or try some other way to get them removed and hope someone else could create a boy scouts program with out being fascist.
Is your position that Bernie hates all US Vets and wants them to die? If so, how does killing vets help get the US to socialism? If anything, it makes Bernie look really bad.
How does centralized control government control of things result in authoritarian societies? I would agree with you, if we didn’t have a democracy, is that what you are getting at?
In this instance, the people doing the needful are calling themselves socialists.Hence the reason the centrists are concerned.
My point is that Bernie believes in socialism so much that he’s willing to ignore US Vets dying
Centralizing control centralizes control. It creates one single point of failure to create an authoritarian society. Venezuela is currently experiencing how well democracies protect from authoritarians.
If Bernie cared about socialism so much he wouldn’t have ignored the US Vets dying. That made him and anything he stood for look really bad, if anything you could say that Bernie doing this was an OP against leftism.
Ok, so it sounds like your definition of authoritarian is any power given to any government. You don’t just have a problem with socialism. You have a problem with democracy as well.
So then do you dislike everyone? Leftists, Centrists, and Conservatives? Democrats, Republicans, and Liberals? Are these all authoritarians?
Sander’s is likely the most sincere public figure in his support of his policies. It’s clear to me, and everyone who watches him (even those who are in opposition to him) that he truly cares and believes in the causes he supports. Especially those that are part of his core platform.
If your plan is to “no true Scotsman” Sanders I can assure you that not only is that an “incorrect” position to have; but it’s absolutely not one that will be seen as believable by the Centrists in the top level meme.
Every form of government comes with a risk of an Authoritarian takeover. Certain actions (like centralization vs. decentralization being just one of many things that helps decide that). But Socialism explicitly calls for creating a heavily centralize givernment that makes it very straightforward for a dictatorship to arise. Quashing the sort of dissent needed to avoid dictatorship and even going as far as endorsing the idea of a “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” to modify society into the ideal Communist population.
In a sense you’re correct that I have problems with most forms of governence when evaluating the chance of an authoritarian taking over. But Socialism endorses that so it’s pretty well at the top of the list.
I agree that Sanders is a democratic socialist. I am confused as to why you brought this incident up then. I thought you were trying to prove that Sanders was an authoritarian, but it seems like we both agree that this was a mistake he made and not some outcome that he wanted to happen or that was aligned with his ideology.
It’s not clear to me that Socialism explicitly calls for that, maybe I have missed that. But Bernie is a Democratic Socialist. I understand this to mean that democracy would be used to create the laws, not an authoritarian. A similar concept to what the US uses today.
Sorry for the delay been a crazy week.
Emphasis added by me. I’m saying that to a Centrist (and honestly to myself too). Sander’s actions to dismiss problems in a desired government program is aligned with his ideology. And a viewing of the record of Socialism and Socialist thought has seen that same patter arise over and over again.
Some OG Source but the context here is, after Das Kapital. The Socialist ideology takes off. Movements in Marx’s lifetime to “vote in” Socialism arose, in this instance in Germany. Marx criticizes this attempt instead of advocating for revolution and dictatorial control exercised by a smaller group of Socialist leaders eg. the “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” (wikipedia summary that’s easier reading).
Capitalism is a system that’s designed to orchestrate the economy of a state. It offers some suggestions for the content of its society and the organization of its government but it is largely agnostic. And has been successfully used alongside Dictatorships, Republics, and Monarchs alike. Socialism dictates not just the economy of a state, but the makeup and mores of its society along with the organization of its Government. There are many modern Socialists who are led to believe that Socialism is compatible with a modern, Western society and Republic; but it pretty explicitly rejects it. Bernie, I believe, is one of those people. But when given power he exercised that power in the same fashion that non-Democratic Socialists of the past have done. That should be concerning to all people, including Centrists.
No need to apologies, I hope things are going well.
So your saying Sanders has an anti-government ideology? To say another way, Sanders want to maximize the amount of dismissed problems in the government? I mean maybe, but I am not buying it because he then worked to pass the Veterans Access, Choice and Accountability Act. Why fix something you broke intentionally? I also don’t see how this is a step towards becoming an authoritarian leader. Trump is doing way better at becoming an authoritarian leader than Sanders and he isn’t even trying.
For the sake of this discussion I will agree with you that the original concept of Socialism required an authoritarian leader. Bernie doesn’t claim to be a Socialist, he claims to be a Democratic Socialist.
I don’t understand why we are talking about Capitalism. Did Bernie say he would get rid of it if he could?
Yes, if Bernie was authoritarian, I would agree. But no one knows that except Bernie. Any political leader can be a sleeper authoritarian. Even George Washington could have been an authoritarian and just waited too long to do anything about it. I can only work on what a leader has said and done, not what is secretly in their head. I haven’t heard or seen anything from Bernie that indicates he is authoritarian.