I’m not talking about stuff like O’Brien’s hollow rank pip, I’m talking about stuff like “Why make Chakotay a lt. commander rather than a full commander?”

It seems like there was at least some forethought put into who has what rank, but it’s not clear to me how much thought, nor how much meaning was supposed to be baked in to those decisions.

For example, Dr Crusher was a full commander from Day 1, matched only by Riker on the main cast. Was that supposed to signify the authority afforded to the CMO? Was it supposed to be blatant enough for the audience to “get” it?

One of the most prominent examples is Sisko starting his series as a commander. Again — was that supposed to signify that he was more junior, a younger officer?

Behind the scenes, I wonder if we can trace a waxing and waning military influence in the writers room over the years. I know Roddenberry served, and I think some of the early TNG writers did as well. But I feel like that became less common in later series? (But I don’t know for sure.)

I think it’s striking that rank is significantly downplayed on DSC, except for Burnham and potentially Saru.

  • Voyager763@startrek.website
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    1 年前

    “Why make Chakotay a lt. commander rather than a full commander?”

    Even after all these years, I’m not convinced that they did.

    I’ll note upfront that I know his provisional rank insignia was that of Lt. Commander, and I know that it’s common practice to refer to a Lt. Commander as simply “commander”. Data, Worf, and Tuvok were regularly referred to as simply “Commander”. I fully understand this. But the thing is that these other officers were introduced, or introduced themselves, in formal situations by their full rank on more than one occasion. When the plot called for their personnel files to appear on screen, their full ranks were displayed with their name as “Lt. Commander”.

    Chakotay was never, not even once, referred to out loud or in text as “Lieutenant Commander”.

    From a Doylist perspective, I’m of the mind that the writers intended for Chakotay to be a full Commander, the same rank as Riker or early-DS9 Sisko, but the costume department goofed and it was simply never corrected — because on the screens of the era, it didn’t really matter because who’s gonna look that closely at the guy’s neck?

    A possible Watsonian explanation is that while he was granted the rank of Lt. Commander provisionally (the rank he held prior to his resignation from Starfleet as well as the rank held by Janeway’s original XO), he was also given the rank of Acting Commander… as a courtesy, maybe? Or maybe Starfleet regulations prevented Janeway from granting any provisional ranks higher than Lt. Commander because that’s the rank her XO held. Compare this situation to Wesley Crusher, who was granted the rank of Acting Ensign but never wore a rank insignia because Starfleet never gave him one. So Janeway could formally grant Chakotay the rank (and the accompanying rank insignia) of Lieutenant Commander in the field, then found a loophole somewhere in the regulations that allowed him to introduce himself formally as Commander.

    • Equals@startrek.websiteOPM
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      This is an excellent analysis. And you are totally right about Chakotay: he is never ever referred to as “Lieutenant Commander”. I like your Watsonian explanation! That’s a really interesting take.

      Of course, this is also the show that was bizarrely inconsistent with Tuvok’s rank. Interestingly, between Kes, Neelix, the Doctor, and Seven, I think VGR may have had the most rankless characters of any series up to that point. I suppose DS9 could be tied, since VGR only had three rankless characters at once, as did DS9 (Quark, Odo, Jake).

      But yeah – I wonder if this reflects a larger trend. ENT definitely leaned on simplified ranks as well – instead of the TNG-era 7-rank scale, we only ever see four on ENT: Captain, Commander, Lieutenant, and Ensign. (It’s not clear to me that the costume department even designed a “hollow pip” for the ENT uniforms.) Under that analysis, we see a gradual trend toward de-emphasizing rank, from DS9 to VGR to ENT to DSC to PIC & PRO (though not LDS).

  • UESPA_Sputnik@lemmy.world
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    I remember an interview with Garrett Wang who talked about a conversation with Rick Berman where he asked him whether Kim would ever be promoted to Lieutenant. Berman pretty much shot him down, saying that someone has to be an ensign.

    And I think that’s pretty much all the thought that went into it: have characters with a variety of ranks. Possibly to help the audience distinguish them better (“Join me in my ready room, [Rank]”). Although admittedly that didn’t work in the second half of TNG when pretty much everyone (except Worf) was addressed as “Commander” because by season 3(?) everyone was at least a Lieutenant Commander.

    With Sisko I think they wanted to distinguish him from the other two Captains Kirk and Picard, and since he commanded “only” a space station that was an in-universe excuse to make Sisko a commander.

    • greatnebula@startrek.website
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      I remember an interview with Garrett Wang who talked about a conversation with Rick Berman where he asked him whether Kim would ever be promoted to Lieutenant. Berman pretty much shot him down, saying that someone has to be an ensign.

      I always thought it would’ve been a fun twist if Harry got a promotion once Tom got demoted in Thirty Days.

  • Melllvar@startrek.website
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    What bothers me the most is that Data was still a Lt. Cmdr after 25+ years of exemplary Starfleet service. It’s not like he’d fail the bridge officer’s test.

    • theinspectorst@kbin.social
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      I think it’s clear throughout TNG that many in Starfleet had reservations about treating an android equivalent to a biological officer, as evidenced by A Measure of a Man (where it was clear many in Starfleet had considered him a piece of property) and by Pulaski’s early interactions with him. Data raised the question in Redemption Part 2 about whether Picard’s initial failure to assign him to command one of the ships was because of unease about an android captain, indicating that such unease was not an outlandish concept to him.

      If I recall correctly, Data also indicated at some point that even though his positronic brain meant he could ace his way through any Starfleet tests, he intentionally didn’t seek to advance through the ranks any faster than a biological officer.

    • gerusz@startrek.website
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      It’s not like he’d fail the bridge officer’s test.

      He was clearly a qualified bridge officer. As a member of the regular chain of command (and being the one regularly in charge of the night shift due to not needing to sleep), he had to be. (In fact, he was put in command of another ship once which would have been impossible if he didn’t have the qualifications.) In his case it’s probably a lack of ambition that led to him being stuck in that rank; he had no real desire to be promoted to another ship when his friends were on the Enterprise and he had every opportunity to learn about meatbags there.

  • majicwalrus@startrek.website
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    Narratively rank is very important especially when you are trying to demonstrate a paramilitary organization in the confines of a television series. I think there are probably often arguments about this. Why is Ezri written as a counselor and an Ensign instead of a science officer of a higher rank?

    I do think there is real world relevance sometimes. We see Worf and Geordi get promotions and become a larger part of the series with more screen time and character development. This works narratively to distinguish the change. An “on screen” promotion indicates some sort of character growth. We see this happen with Sisko likely because the only reason to distinguish him at first was because he was written to have a fairly minor (in universe) role which was greatly expanded.

    In recent years I think rank has been downplayed as there are so many inconsistencies and patterns and anti-patterns throughout the series. It’s important that you’re able to tell a story where if someone is supposed to be in charge they have the appropriate rank for this. This is one of the reasons Discovery effectively promoted Tilly rapidly (all the way to being the XO for a little bit) because she was a pivotal part of the cast and needed screen time. In fact Discovery doesn’t “ignore” rank it rather ignores rank conventions by having a mutineer on the bridge as a ‘specialist’ and a command staff that almost just takes turns at the wheel.

    In Lower Decks we can assume narratively no one is going to get promoted permanently or demoted permanently because the show depends on that dynamic. If we look to Strange New Worlds we see rank downplayed to a large degree because everyone’s rank is so close together. This is important to get Spock of a low enough rank so that he can be promoted to commander later. (Frustratingly there are still inconsistencies here. There seems to be confusion between Lt. and Lt. Jg. and Nurse Chapel’s rank, which may be provisional because she may be a civilian contractor who has a temporary commission and then later joins with a regular commission of a lower rank - or her rank is just not important - is also out of continuity.) But importantly for SNW - narratively it makes sense to have these people of these ranks in these positions so it just works.

    In a more realistic depiction people would be moving through ships much more quickly. There would be fewer officers and they would move through the ranks regularly and not stay in one position for 7 years. Likewise mostly Enlisted people would be spending a few years at most and moving onto other careers in civilian life as most people don’t want to be in the military forever and if they do they become officers. Miles O’Brien (despite the insignia being weird) is probably most accurately depicted. He served on many posts, he left posts for some period of time and then returned to them in new capacities, he moved between posts. He joined in 2345 and by 2375 he was probably ready for retirement or in the case of a utopian future, moving back to Earth to teach at Starfleet until he is absolutely ancient because he’s got nothing better to do and he loves his job.

    • Prouvaire@kbin.social
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      This is one of the reasons Discovery effectively promoted Tilly rapidly (all the way to being the XO for a little bit) because she was a pivotal part of the cast and needed screen time.

      It’s a testament to Mary Wiseman’s acting that the writers sought to give Tilly more screen time. But the way they did it made my eyes roll through the roof. I did not for a second consider it believable that an Ensign, only a couple (?) of years out of the Academy, would be skyrocketed through the hierarchy to become the Chief Operating Officer of the ship.

      Tilly’s promotion was even more unbelievable than when Jed Bartlet made CJ Cregg his Chief of Staff, elevating her above her Toby Ziegler (whom she reported to) and Josh Lyman. I know why the writers did it - because Allison Janney was the best actor in a world-class ensemble, and they wanted to give her more to do. But it didn’t ring true to me (even though there is an argument to be made that all the West Wing characters are so hyper-competent that reporting lines are mere formalities).

      Sure, you could argue Starfleet has a history of promoting promising youngsters unbelievably fast - like when they gave that cocky repeat offender fresh out of school command of the most modern ship in the fleet simply as a reward for saving the world. But even so.

      This actually goes to a related point about DIS and how the writers treated the rank of its main character. Discovery was notable in that it was the first show where the lead actor was also not the most senior member of the crew. As David Gerrold pointed out in The World of Star Trek (IIRC), there’s a reason why the captain is the star of the show. Because in a crisis all decisions come back to that role. And the ability to make decisions is what makes for good characterisation (Hamlet notwithstanding). But if the command decisions, the decisions around which the plots and the drama pivot, are ultimately made by someone other than Michael Burnham, more senior than her and who can overrule her, what do you do then? Well, you make the Captain a baddie (like in season 1) or you find other ways of making the main character go against orders (which Burnham did repeatedly). Unfortunately that led to a backlash because the character, Mary Sue-like, was always proven to be correct whenever she went rogue.

      I actually liked the fact that the lead character in DIS wasn’t the CO. But - like Tilly’s promotion - I just wish the writers had found a better way of exploring that dynamic. Having Burnham assume the traditional captain’s seat in season 4 was - in some ways - an admission of defeat, but an understandable one.

      Lower Decks of course pulls it off, but as a comedy the stakes are generally lower, and the fact that the main characters often don’t know what’s going on, or aren’t in a position to decide how to shape events, is part of the gag.

      • shawnj2@startrek.website
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        That too for LD, especially in later seasons, the main characters are much more interesting than the average ensign and get a lot more to do. For example, Rutherford was previously injured in a ship racing accident and wrote an insane AI program, Boimler has a “dead” transporter clone in Section 31, Mariner is the captain’s daughter, and Tendi is from an Orion pirate family. Not only that but whatever they are doing that episode usually has some impact on the “main” plot, like how Rutherford ends up acting as a diplomat in one episode or how they attempt to steal the Cerritos.

    • BobApril@lemmy.one
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      A couple of quibbles that no one else seems to have brought up. Ensign Tilly was not promoted to XO - she was assigned to the position of acting XO while remaining an Ensign. The designation of “acting” makes it clear she’s just holding down the slot temporarily until Saru makes a more permanent selection, and makes it much more tolerable for those she’s now in charge of despite the lower rank. It probably wouldn’t have been tolerated (by the Admirals at Command) even in the lax standards of Starfleet, but even ADM Vance realized Saru had to pick from the tiny crew he brought to the future with him, so he let it go.

      As for Ezri, again, remember that rank and position are only loosely connected, while rank and specialty (Counselor, science officer, engineer, navigator) are COMPLETELY unconnected. Ezri is a counselor because they wanted to make her distinct from Jadzia, and is an Ensign to highlight her inexperience both as a person and in dealing with a symbiote.

      But yes, it does seem like the writers’ familiarity comes and goes. I swear there are at least a few episodes (and I can’t remember which series, because I’m alternating between three right now) where people refer to a Lt. Cdr. as “Lieutenant” instead of the proper term of address, “Commander.”

  • Blamemeta@lemmy.world
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    1 年前

    They weren’t always super careful about it.

    Also, in the real life US Navy, ranks don’t always reflect positions. Captains are not always the Captains of ships, for example.