I have pointed out numerous times how this strategy is just a repeat of the same electoral strategy that radical liberals have been engaging in for the better part of 20 years.

This is clearly not a winning strategy. You’re not being pragmatic you’re being insane because you continue to do the same thing expecting a different result while watching our government inch closer to fascism.

Pragmatically voting for minimizing harm means voting in the most working class candidate possible because that’s what we should all do regardless of party and vote for the most Progressive policies to uplift Working Class People. Anything past that is generally a waste of time.

If there’s a candidate a particular group is interested in sure they could spend some of their time doing electoral politics but they have additional responsibilities they have to do which are far more important and then spreading the propaganda of whatever candidate they’re trying to get voted in.

Like I said before education is incredibly important to help build the working class party and an educated working class would vote for the working class candidate regardless of party.

To your point you don’t get to pick who the generals are either. Nor do you get to pick who your comrades are or what the proper strategies are. Sometimes we have to conform to reality which I would argue that you are not.

Oh I don’t think she’s a genocide supporter I know she’s Pro Palestinian. I just think this was unequivocally a loss for AOC.

I don’t agree with the people that smeared paint all over her office but I do understand why they are upset.

Okay so yeah you are objectively correct that she did vote down the overall bill that funds Israel in general but let’s not forget that she was condemned by Ilhan Omar and DSA for voting no on the MTG Amendment. It’s not just people throwing shade at her she is receiving legitimate criticism for not voting away more of Israel’s funding. The argument is quite simple As long as Israel commits a genocide they should receive no military funding period regardless of what they would use the assets for.

She is using the proper terminology calling this a genocide. She is heavily critical of Israel and she at least didn’t vote Yes on a funding bill in 2021.

So in general she tends to be pretty Pro Palestinian but I think in this particular case on the MTG Amendment this is a loss unequivocally for her and she made a mistake. And she’s deepening that mistake by doubling down.

Noted I will not make sarcastic comments like that anymore. You do have a point that you never attacked my character for the most part. So I probably should not have made the comment about getting a jacket specifically to rile you up.

Regardless I wouldn’t go buy the jacket I would make it. Much more ethical that way.

Other tankies will do what you want them to do but they will not spend their time doing the other thing you want them to do which is try to engage people to get them to vote. They will see it like I do as a waste of time.

You can try this thing on Anarchist and they would respond the same. They would see it as a waste of time.

You were not going to beat the government by playing in the government’s own Turf and following their rules

That was a good play trying to tug on my heartstrings with the PLA except they’re not actually a good model to replicate in the Quest for liberation. Nice try though.

It would have been better for you to quote Lenin.

You still can’t let the sarcastic comment about a jacket go. Besides I would not waste my time buying a jacket I would make my own. I am a proud communist after all.

Being pragmatic about voting is not the same as investing time into electoralism. Being pragmatic about voting means voting in the working class candidate always regardless of their chance of winning. Or voting in a policy that will help uplift the working class. Thats it.

You should spend literally no more time than that on voting.

You should not waste your time trying to create policies or trying to push them through the parliamentarian process. It is a Fool’s errand and a waste of time. Attempting to push policy through that will benefit the working class against the capitalistic interest is basically just a waste of time, money, and energy. The capitalist literally built the system so that it would not work that way and it could not be used against them in that way. Something that Rosa Luxembourg addresses in her book reform or revolution.

If your local organization wants a certain person to win then yes they obviously should spend some time on electoralism. Probably about 10% of their time doing some sort of propaganda for their chosen candidate. The rest of the time they should be doing other much more useful things like collecting donations to feed the hungry in their community, or finding beds and shelters that are open for the homeless folk in their community, or educating the masses on communist Theory so that they gain class consciousness.

These are the things we should be focused on not getting people elected. Thus electoralism is not a major front at all and hardly worth considering when faced with the other monumental tasks that must be done in order to facilitate the rise of a working class party.

Your Privilege is showing again. Native Americans aren’t exactly Keen on getting us Aid. Something about the numerous strings attached.

I would vote pragmatically for the candidate who promises to do the most with the best track record. Which probably won’t be the Democrat or the Republican.

Yes they should vote for the most radical candidate that will bring the most benefit to workers regardless of the party.

You keep saying that electoralism is one of the most important fronts for the class war.

I’d be very happy to go pull it out of a screenshot for you.

I disagree. I think electoralism should be practiced only in so far as we can get something pragmatically out of it. This of course would mean advocating for people like Zohran Mamdani but also be willing to call him out for playing to corporate interests over those of the community. Frankly I’m super excited for him to get elected. It’s going to be a wonderful example of the ineffectiveness of electoralism to actually get anything done. And if I’m wrong that’s even better because the material conditions actively get better for people.

Currently I don’t think we’ll get anything out of the Democrats. I don’t think they’ll roll back any of the Trump changes and it would just be a pause before the next fascist Administration rolls in.

Liberals have no idea where to put in their time and effort when it comes to making changes politically and it shows throughout this entire thread. You know you should at least read the commie books since they have a ton of information on how to properly organize a community and how to utilize their local power including when to use electoralism.

I simply Advocate that people shouldn’t waste their time advocating for the Democrats or trying to convince people to vote. There are other places where our time is better utilized actually helping our community rather than wasting our breath on a political group that does not care about us and will not save us.

As far as your example it’s more like a group deciding they want to grow lemons in Colorado to feed the homeless and me doing my best to Advocate they don’t do that because it’s a literal waste of time.

Watching a bunch of liberals cry about electoralism has definitely been an experience. I did not know that it was so easy to upset a group of people by simply saying that people shouldn’t waste time advocating for people to vote for the Democrats.

Color me unsurprised that you’re going to continue a strategy that hasn’t worked in 20 plus years.

What’s the definition of insanity continuing to do something that doesn’t work and hoping for a different result?

I just don’t care about people trying to organize and won’t waste my time helping others beyond my most intimidate eye sight

Yep. You caught me. Local organization helps with none of these things and you’re right I should waste more of my time trying to convince people to vote in a system that won’t represent them or fix anything.

Really you should take this attitude to a Native American reservation watch how it plays out. I’m sure they won’t have a ton of reasons why they refuse to vote in the US elections. And I’m sure they won’t take any offense to you claiming that they’re in a privileged position to not vote.

we had a SC that could rule that the overturning of RoeVWade is not allowed

Yes Supreme Court that acts like that would be nice. Too bad that’s literally never existed in the United States for its entire history.

You know what else would be nice if Bernie got elected in 2016 but over in reality we have to deal with what’s here. Not idealism land where if you logic hard enough you can get all the apathetic voters to vote and every voter who’s going to vote third party to vote for the party of your choice.

Your mistake is thinking that people are rational creatures that will always make a decision based on that rationality when in fact we are irrational creatures that contain a multitude of contradictory opinions.

Reality is recognizing that there is no magic wand to make apathetic voters come to the table and your pleas about minority safety will fall on deaf ears. Americans are an incredibly selfish bunch.

Call me privileged all you want you have no idea about my life who I am what I’m protecting or what I need to do to survive. It’s almost like one should say that you need to check your privilege

Have you not seen that I have conceded the point that people should at least go vote?

Is that not what you want? Or do you want people to vote a very specific way and then if you do how much energy should people spend trying to accomplish that? And finally how would this attempt to be any different from any of the other attempts that we’ve done the last 20 plus years that were not effective

But we don’t get to vote on policy. Not often. Not on the federal level and very rarely in a way that matters locally.

Our Representatives don’t represent us and our government does not represent the majority will of the people and hasn’t regardless of which party is in office.

I’m not saying that people shouldn’t vote I’m saying that people shouldn’t waste time convincing others to vote or who to vote for.

I understand that’s what you think but I think you’re going to be disappointed in the outcome of those actions

It’s not privilege it’s realism.

It’s not a privilege to know that no matter how I vote that It ultimately isn’t going to affect anything and that things have to be done locally through local organizations to help your community.

It is waste of any time on electoralism other than “go vote”

As I said there are many organizations that took this route of electoralism being the most important front of the class or one of the most important fronts of the class war.

In most cases it only delayed the inevitable fall to facisim. See 1920’s Germany for an example of this strategy used and failed to protect the minorities.

I want people to have freedom beyond the government and to actually affect change in the government. Neither thing that can be done via electoralism.

Don’t worry I understand how hard it is for liberals to let go the concept of electorlism being a major front for the class war. Its not. It takes time to undo the many many many years of US propaganda though that teaches this to us.

I plan on it.

Oh? So what did they fix?

Go ahead and list it out. I will wait.

You know there’s an efficient use of time and then there is a waste of time right?

Hey how that strategy of vote or lose the US to facisim work out?

We ready to do something different or just keep trying to same losing strat?

As are you evidentially.

Its funny thats what you chose to screencap because I am clearly being sarcastic.

As far as the rachet effect I see you as the reason the democrats won’t veer left since your ilk will always vote them in regardless of their position.

I will not vote between 99% hitler and 95% hitler. I am going to vote for “Not Hitler” and then encourage everyone to do the same and to not waste time trying to change a party that would offer “95% hitler” instead of a “Not Hitler”