No. Women for a very long time were not considered fully realized humans in a legal sense. Hell, women couldn’t have bank accounts separate from their husbands until the 1970s.
My point is that women were victims and not even fully recognized legal entities and they STILL decided they wanted to help themselves; they organized themselves; and made progress on women’s issues.
If “society” doesn’t believe men or care about men, well, who is it with those negative attitudes? Society is about 50% women and 50% men. Seems to me a lot of men are not believing men as well as any women not believing men, given the current landscape. You belong to one of those groups. As a member of your class, you can be energized to make change.
No one is going to be an advocate for you (or your class) as much as you yourself. That’s not victim blaming, that is telling you how to actualize change in the world.
Maybe I’m just being overly sensitive but I find the wording of your original post is more detrimental. Men have to do something if they want help! No we all have to do something.
Women care. I care about this poor man’s story (edit: and women’s groups helped out OP to find a group that he could join). But we have our hands full with our own issues. And partnering with good men is part of the success of women’s efforts to help themselves.
It will be the same way for men’s issues, but men need to pick up that torch and lead. Women will help but men need to drive. For example, men’s DV shelter services could probably most easily be added by partnering with a women’s DV shelter so that there is men’s aid in place (though less likely to be needed, depending on location and population density) so it may look a bit different. Men could reach out and drive the development of a partnership program.
I think a fundamental difference to the way that men (as a class) and women (as a class) think about these issues is that men expect men and women to care; but women expect nothing from men. This seems to be a driver for our differences in opinion/perspective.
It is your issue. Your brother, cousin, friend, someone you care about could be going through the same thing. Imagine if this line of thinking was applied to women’s sufferage?
think a fundamental difference to the way that men (as a class) and women (as a class) think about these issues is that men expect men and women to care; but women expect nothing from men. This seems to be a driver for our differences in opinion/perspective.
That makes no sense. Without gaining support from the other side you get no resolution. Especially when the other Side is literally your abuser. I don’t expect shit from white ppl and that’s literally the problem. WE NEED THEM TO CARE. Society doesn’t change unless everyone cares about the issue at hand. In no shape or form does systemic racism end without white ppl
It will be the same way for men’s issues, but men need to pick up that torch and lead.
I understand what your saying but the overall comment shows the real problem. We are harsher and less caring about the issue in general. Imagine any of this rhetoric was used for issues like black women and their sky high mortality rate during childbirth, lack of attention towards Asian hate crimes, ignoring of natives women murders, or police brutality towards black men. That we have other things to deal with so it’s all on them to fix it. That if things aren’t being changed that’s its their own fault.
Imagine any of this rhetoric was used for issues like black women and their sky high mortality rate during childbirth, lack of attention towards Asian hate crimes, ignoring of natives women murders, or police brutality towards black men. That we have other things to deal with so it’s all on them to fix it.
Historically speaking, it is.
I think ideally, waiting around for The Correct Group to fix a known problem is insane and pointless as fuck. And you’re right, both on paper and with a morality any non-sociopathic 2nd grader should be able to manage.
I also think there’s a substantial bitterness among women that does deserve to be there. We’ve been left to fix every problem we have more or less by ourselves, and had to pay dearly for every inch of it. I say, as we visibly stand here losing ground again.
Women weren’t allowed to vote? Couldn’t serve in the army? Hold jobs? We protested til we could.
We had no public bathrooms, forcibly leasing us to a set vicinity from our own home? We made two associations about it, men destroyed a model bathroom by driving a cab through it, and the idea only finally took hold because of cholera.
Couldn’t divorce? We murdered abusive husbands we couldn’t escape and continued lobbying. Same with controlling our own money.
Couldn’t wear pants? We wore them anyway, often in the face of sustained verbal and physical abuse, until men just got used to us wearing different clothing.
Every women’s scholarship was left behind by a woman who didn’t get a scholarship, found success anyway, and left a ladder for others who needed it. Men aren’t doing this nearly as often for reasons I don’t understand.
The first battered women’s shelters in Japan? Started by women. Australia, Germany, Italy? The UK and the US? All women. The first in the US was a random storefront with an apartment in the back that a handful of women repurposed. It was initially run entirely on donations they got from selling crafts. The police didn’t appreciate it and rarely if ever lifted a hand except to show a dangerous amount of indifference to threats.
On its face, it’s venomous to see a problem and tell someone to just deal with it themselves. In reality, we have done all of this ourselves, always with significant pushback.
This is where we are when the other half of the planet swears up and down they can’t do exactly the thing that we did. Yes, you can. If you need shelters, so did we and we opened them. We were forced to stand up for ourselves if we wanted anything fixed, and we did so.
Now, whenever this comes up, men want us to fix their problems for them too. Especially egregious since a lot of times, they’re the ones society takes at all seriously. They’re the ones with the funding, not that that was ever a valid excuse for us. We can barely get y’all to treat us like fellow humans if we stick y’all in prison for it and even that isn’t helping, but your work is still being laid at our feet.
Every time we so much as suggest men compliment and support each other, they snap straight to whining and explaining it would really feel better if it came from women and what if someone thinks they’re gay. THEN BE GAY.
I don’t think I can begin to describe how frustrating that is, and the kind of bitter anger that it breeds. Nothing is stopping you.
I’ll admit, as dismissive as it looks, part of me was reading the head comment and going, “so why don’t you just…start a group? There’s clearly a niche, surely they aren’t the only one in that entire state going through this.”
We care. Sometimes brutally. It’s not like we can’t relate to what that’s like, you know? But you’re not, as a class, less capable than we were. It isn’t whether we morally should, it’s the constant allegation that men’s problems MUST belong to us and no one else. Along with also our problems, also usually courtesy of the same men.
This was never the kind of thread to be writing shit like this. Certainly not suicide, I have a military buddy who’s the last one standing out of his entire squad, that all committed suicide, and he won’t goddamn go to therapy.
But the experience, as always, of begging men to do anything at all to fix any issue they are having is. Maddening.
Well considering you’re leaving out the various groups of men and women of color who are collectively fixing/fixed their joint problems, including the Black Panther party, NFWA, NAACP, CORE, AAPA etc. This notion that men are incapable of fixing their own problems with women having to do everything is insulting and just flat out wrong. And let’s not ignore that in America the women’s rights pursuit has always been fragmented with women of color (particularly black women) being left to fend for themselves. Sorjourner Truth had a bit to say about this. So let’s not act like women were this collective united force in America.
I also think there’s a substantial bitterness among women that does deserve to be there.
And there it is. This speaks volumes. That somehow men’s issues are less than because of general accepted bitterness. That since you had to struggle you feel that you are morally absolved of helping (not doing all the work) and I’ve yet to see any joint societal problem affecting both sexes that was solved 100% by a single sex.
Every time we so much as suggest men compliment and support each other, they snap straight to whining and explaining it would really feel better if it came from women and what if someone thinks they’re gay. THEN BE GAY.
So that somehow negates the fact that it’d be nice if 50% of society also chipped in to help? And since where using anecdotal. It’d be nice for women to actually know that men are so starved for any kind of positive reinforcement from the opposite sex.
it’s the constant allegation that men’s problems MUST belong to us and no one else. Along with also our problems, also usually courtesy of the same men.
BECAUSE THEY DO BELONG TO YOU. An injustice against anyone is an injustice against everyone. Do you think domestic violence against women didn’t negatively affect men? Doing nothing until it’s your problem is what leds to nazis. Empathy and sympathy is so important and it’s needed for any and all change.
The more i debate the more the argument devolve into, “fuck you got mine”. We figured it out on our own (even though you really didn’t) and that literally asking 50% of the population not to do all the work but to simply help a very fragile and hurt group of ppl. And the most ironic part is the constant argument that MEN DON’T ASK FOR HELP. But when we do, “fuck you got mine”
No. Women for a very long time were not considered fully realized humans in a legal sense. Hell, women couldn’t have bank accounts separate from their husbands until the 1970s.
My point is that women were victims and not even fully recognized legal entities and they STILL decided they wanted to help themselves; they organized themselves; and made progress on women’s issues.
If “society” doesn’t believe men or care about men, well, who is it with those negative attitudes? Society is about 50% women and 50% men. Seems to me a lot of men are not believing men as well as any women not believing men, given the current landscape. You belong to one of those groups. As a member of your class, you can be energized to make change.
No one is going to be an advocate for you (or your class) as much as you yourself. That’s not victim blaming, that is telling you how to actualize change in the world.
My argument wasn’t against advocacy. I was essentially saying that this isn’t a problem that is only solved by men. It’s a societal issue that men and women have to come together on. Especially since domestic violence on men is often different compared to women
Maybe I’m just being overly sensitive but I find the wording of your original post is more detrimental. Men have to do something if they want help! No we all have to do something.
Women care. I care about this poor man’s story (edit: and women’s groups helped out OP to find a group that he could join). But we have our hands full with our own issues. And partnering with good men is part of the success of women’s efforts to help themselves.
It will be the same way for men’s issues, but men need to pick up that torch and lead. Women will help but men need to drive. For example, men’s DV shelter services could probably most easily be added by partnering with a women’s DV shelter so that there is men’s aid in place (though less likely to be needed, depending on location and population density) so it may look a bit different. Men could reach out and drive the development of a partnership program.
I think a fundamental difference to the way that men (as a class) and women (as a class) think about these issues is that men expect men and women to care; but women expect nothing from men. This seems to be a driver for our differences in opinion/perspective.
It is your issue. Your brother, cousin, friend, someone you care about could be going through the same thing. Imagine if this line of thinking was applied to women’s sufferage?
That makes no sense. Without gaining support from the other side you get no resolution. Especially when the other Side is literally your abuser. I don’t expect shit from white ppl and that’s literally the problem. WE NEED THEM TO CARE. Society doesn’t change unless everyone cares about the issue at hand. In no shape or form does systemic racism end without white ppl
I understand what your saying but the overall comment shows the real problem. We are harsher and less caring about the issue in general. Imagine any of this rhetoric was used for issues like black women and their sky high mortality rate during childbirth, lack of attention towards Asian hate crimes, ignoring of natives women murders, or police brutality towards black men. That we have other things to deal with so it’s all on them to fix it. That if things aren’t being changed that’s its their own fault.
Historically speaking, it is.
I think ideally, waiting around for The Correct Group to fix a known problem is insane and pointless as fuck. And you’re right, both on paper and with a morality any non-sociopathic 2nd grader should be able to manage.
I also think there’s a substantial bitterness among women that does deserve to be there. We’ve been left to fix every problem we have more or less by ourselves, and had to pay dearly for every inch of it. I say, as we visibly stand here losing ground again.
Women weren’t allowed to vote? Couldn’t serve in the army? Hold jobs? We protested til we could.
We had no public bathrooms, forcibly leasing us to a set vicinity from our own home? We made two associations about it, men destroyed a model bathroom by driving a cab through it, and the idea only finally took hold because of cholera.
Couldn’t divorce? We murdered abusive husbands we couldn’t escape and continued lobbying. Same with controlling our own money.
Couldn’t wear pants? We wore them anyway, often in the face of sustained verbal and physical abuse, until men just got used to us wearing different clothing.
Every women’s scholarship was left behind by a woman who didn’t get a scholarship, found success anyway, and left a ladder for others who needed it. Men aren’t doing this nearly as often for reasons I don’t understand.
The first battered women’s shelters in Japan? Started by women. Australia, Germany, Italy? The UK and the US? All women. The first in the US was a random storefront with an apartment in the back that a handful of women repurposed. It was initially run entirely on donations they got from selling crafts. The police didn’t appreciate it and rarely if ever lifted a hand except to show a dangerous amount of indifference to threats.
On its face, it’s venomous to see a problem and tell someone to just deal with it themselves. In reality, we have done all of this ourselves, always with significant pushback.
This is where we are when the other half of the planet swears up and down they can’t do exactly the thing that we did. Yes, you can. If you need shelters, so did we and we opened them. We were forced to stand up for ourselves if we wanted anything fixed, and we did so.
Now, whenever this comes up, men want us to fix their problems for them too. Especially egregious since a lot of times, they’re the ones society takes at all seriously. They’re the ones with the funding, not that that was ever a valid excuse for us. We can barely get y’all to treat us like fellow humans if we stick y’all in prison for it and even that isn’t helping, but your work is still being laid at our feet.
Every time we so much as suggest men compliment and support each other, they snap straight to whining and explaining it would really feel better if it came from women and what if someone thinks they’re gay. THEN BE GAY.
I don’t think I can begin to describe how frustrating that is, and the kind of bitter anger that it breeds. Nothing is stopping you.
I’ll admit, as dismissive as it looks, part of me was reading the head comment and going, “so why don’t you just…start a group? There’s clearly a niche, surely they aren’t the only one in that entire state going through this.”
We care. Sometimes brutally. It’s not like we can’t relate to what that’s like, you know? But you’re not, as a class, less capable than we were. It isn’t whether we morally should, it’s the constant allegation that men’s problems MUST belong to us and no one else. Along with also our problems, also usually courtesy of the same men.
This was never the kind of thread to be writing shit like this. Certainly not suicide, I have a military buddy who’s the last one standing out of his entire squad, that all committed suicide, and he won’t goddamn go to therapy.
But the experience, as always, of begging men to do anything at all to fix any issue they are having is. Maddening.
Well considering you’re leaving out the various groups of men and women of color who are collectively fixing/fixed their joint problems, including the Black Panther party, NFWA, NAACP, CORE, AAPA etc. This notion that men are incapable of fixing their own problems with women having to do everything is insulting and just flat out wrong. And let’s not ignore that in America the women’s rights pursuit has always been fragmented with women of color (particularly black women) being left to fend for themselves. Sorjourner Truth had a bit to say about this. So let’s not act like women were this collective united force in America.
And there it is. This speaks volumes. That somehow men’s issues are less than because of general accepted bitterness. That since you had to struggle you feel that you are morally absolved of helping (not doing all the work) and I’ve yet to see any joint societal problem affecting both sexes that was solved 100% by a single sex.
So that somehow negates the fact that it’d be nice if 50% of society also chipped in to help? And since where using anecdotal. It’d be nice for women to actually know that men are so starved for any kind of positive reinforcement from the opposite sex.
BECAUSE THEY DO BELONG TO YOU. An injustice against anyone is an injustice against everyone. Do you think domestic violence against women didn’t negatively affect men? Doing nothing until it’s your problem is what leds to nazis. Empathy and sympathy is so important and it’s needed for any and all change.
The more i debate the more the argument devolve into, “fuck you got mine”. We figured it out on our own (even though you really didn’t) and that literally asking 50% of the population not to do all the work but to simply help a very fragile and hurt group of ppl. And the most ironic part is the constant argument that MEN DON’T ASK FOR HELP. But when we do, “fuck you got mine”
I love you. What an excellent comment.
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