I had a pledge that I would buy a Union-made American Flag and plant it firmly in my lawn if two things happened (1) Harris was elected President, and (2) Trump served any prison time.
Nationalism fuels fascism, but I think patriotism can be a healthy pride; sort of like how one distinguishes confidence from arrogance.
Ultimately patriotism is a neutral term and is decided upon whether you agree with your national identity in both where your nation is, and where it is heading. I naturally don’t agree with either at present, and so I’m not patriotic. Some are patriotic for the wrong reasons. If we get back to our roots, then I will perhaps one day have pride in being an American again.
It’s a loaded, low-effort question that puts the onus on your target and required nothing from you at all.
That said, if it wasn’t in bad faith, I welcome you to try again. Otherwise, I can easily find better things to do than waste more time on trolls, friendo.
You can dance in circles all you want, it’s not going to change anything. You’re taking concepts that have nothing to do with fascism and attributing them to it regardless. Saying patriotism a gateway drug to fascism is like saying “community is a gateway drug to cults.” Just because both involve belonging and loyalty doesn’t mean one inevitably leads to the other. It’s the distortion, not the foundation, that creates danger.
Trying to twist something that’s normal, healthy, and even necessary like patriotism or community into something toxic, shows that you’re disingenuous, which is ironic considering your spiel here. Just because you say something is poisonous that doesn’t that it is.
Oh, you silly frothy fuckwit. I simply called out your bullshit “question”, and was clearly accurate in presuming it was, in fact, bait.
Your attempts to weaponize the word salad sloshing around in that soggy head aren’t doing you any favors, so how about this:
Read a fucking book that isn’t Mein Kampf.
Don’t forget to breathe. (optional)
Bye, Felisha.
BTW, for those playing along at home, “community” is essential. “Patriotism” is not. Don’t suffer these idiots. Call them out, every time. You are not alone, friends. We got this. ✊🏼
So let me get this straight. You made a stupid claim, got criticized for it, tried to beat around the bush, and when you got called out, you threw a temper tantrum? I’m not surprised, but it goes to show that people like you lack the ability to defend your views on their own merits. But hey, why stand by your beliefs when you could just cope by appealing to the masses (nobody is reading this thread btw)…
I have to disagree. Without at least a little pride or the want to have pride in where we come from, what incentive is there to do things like cataloging history or preserving cultures and languages. I don’t think all cultures are objectively or subjectively good by any stretch, but their information, knowledge, and ritual is 100% worth cataloging and knowing, if anything just to preserve knowledge of what not to do.
For example, the confederate south. Is it worth keeping up monuments and statues honoring the traitors? Absolutely not. Is it worth keeping knowledge of what happened so that we might not repeat it? Absolutely. Without a healthy amount of patriotism, in this case the hope that where we come from can improve, why wouldn’t we just wipe away that history and pretend it didn’t happen? That’s a major line where it switches from patriotism to nationalism.
But mostly it’s just the want to improve where you’re from that’s why I believe you should have a healthy amount of patriotism. Without it, why bother doing anything at all, from protesting to rioting violent encouragement to do something different.
Anyways, hope that what my overly caffeinated brain wrote down makes sense
And nationalism is bad, because? Nationalism when taken to the extreme can be bad because it’s extreme, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with nationalism.
If you cannot see, why the ideology that brought us both World Wars, Russias war against Ukraine and so many more modern conflicts, was the base of colonialism and neo-colonialism, imperialism, 20th century slavery, fascism, zionism and that let us buold borders where thousands die every year, you are lost.
This is just a piss poor understanding of history, nationalism, and geopolitics.
Let’s take the Ukraine war as an example. Russia is not a nation state, it’s an empire. Empires are usually multiethnic, hierarchical, and expansionist, ruling over diverse peoples through centralized authority and often unequal legal or political status. Ukraine, on the other hand, is a nation state because it’s organized around a shared national identity that is defined by common language, culture, or ethnicity, and it treats all of its citizens as equals under the law. This war is basically between Russian imperialists who want to expand the empire and Ukrainian nationalists who want to defend their nation.
Using your flawed logic, Ukrainians are bad people because they believe in and are actively defending an ideology that you falsely attribute to everything bad to has ever happened in the world and in history. That’s just nonsense.
Your example is very bad, to be honest. Both Russia and Ukraine are states. All states today claim to be nations. Every nation is a social construct, made by inventing or at least warping history to explain the creation of a nation. States tend to equalize the people living on it’s territory by introducing things like law, language, traditions or education. And they are actively trying to tell this story of “the people” to legitimate themselves. But the people are not the same. Look at your own country, wherever you live. There are always vast differences between places in different cardinal directions or at the borders vs. inland, between richer and poorer regions or between urban and rural areas. In Russia, that becomes very obvious, but it is the same everywhere.
Nationalism is the root of everything, I described. Nothing of that would have existed without a strong nationalist movement. Sure, there can be more or less extreme forms of nationalism, but this ideoligy is always dividing territory and people into the inside and outside.
Every Ukrainian fighting against Russian imperialism is fine. But at the end, I hope there are more people left to rebuilt the country, who fought for their freedom and not for some fucking glorious Father/Motherland.
2014 tumblr called, they want their arguments back. Calling something a social construct does NOT mean it’s bad, fake, or invalid. Math is a social construct, time is a social construct, language is a social construct… yet these are all good things that describe things that are very real, and their existence is very much valid. The idea of a nation state falls under this category.
States tend to equalize the people living on it’s territory by introducing things like law, language, traditions or education. And they are actively trying to tell this story of “the people” to legitimate themselves.
And this is a bad thing, because? I don’t see an issue with a state trying to unite people through their commonalities. If you want a large group of people to be involved and coordinated then you have to make them feel included, and this is the way to do it.
But the people are not the same. Look at your own country, wherever you live. There are always vast differences between places in different cardinal directions or at the borders vs. inland, between richer and poorer regions or between urban and rural areas.
So? There is always going to be a degree of diversity among people, geography, and economies. That doesn’t mean that nations don’t exist. A Chinese person is Chinese regardless of whether or not they’re rich or poor, live near the border or not, or live in the city or a farm. They’re Chinese by ancestry, by language, and by culture. You could make an argument that some states occupy other nations, and that’s a bad thing, and I would agree with you. China is a good example of that as they occupy Tibet, Xinjiang, and Inner Mongolia… however, the Chinese nation still exists and it deserves it’s own state even if the borders need to redrawn.
In Russia, that becomes very obvious, but it is the same everywhere.
The reason why I called Russia an empire is because it is one by definition. It checks every single check mark required to consider it an empire and then some. They can call themselves whatever they want, it doesn’t mean anything in reality. It’s like North Korea calling itself a democracy when it’s clearly not. Unlike Russia, Ukraine is a true nation state, or at least a lot closer to one than Russia is.
Nationalism is the root of everything, I described. Nothing of that would have existed without a strong nationalist movement.
That’s such a myopic view of history that it’s actually ignorant. If you unironically think that you can boil down most of history down to an ideology a concept you barely understand and then consider this singular ideology to be the root cause of everything bad in history then you simply don’t understand history.
Sure, there can be more or less extreme forms of nationalism, but this ideoligy is always dividing territory and people into the inside and outside.
But have you ever thought about why nations and states exist in the first place? From the start of civilization 10,000 years ago to today, countries and border have always existed regardless of culture, geography, or era. What makes so persistent throughout history? Could it be that because it’s an essential part of civilization and it’s an inherently useful concept even if it’s not perfect? The answer is yes.
Every Ukrainian fighting against Russian imperialism is fine. But at the end, I hope there are more people left to rebuilt the country, who fought for their freedom and not for some fucking glorious Father/Motherland.
These two things are intertwined. They’re fighting for their father/motherland, aka their nation, against imperialist conquest because it’s where their roots are. The nation is where their families are, where their culture is, where the history of their people took place, and where their freedoms and rights are.
Also, people like you annoy me because you complain without providing any alternatives. You hate nationalism as a concept? Fine, what do you propose as an alternative? If you have a realistic, practical option then let’s hear it. Otherwise, if you have nothing other than vague ideological complaints then you critiques don’t hold as much weight.
I never tried to boil down most of history to anything. I just laid down the fact, that this shitty idea of the nation state, that came into fashion in the 19th century laid the ideological groundwork to many of the astrocities in the following two centuries. This is common knowledge.
A nation is not a thing that exists. There are different forms of cultures that can develop together or go in different directions, depending on who is in power and who draws the borders. If you where really interested in history, you could know that. The whole of Europe is a great example, or the Koreas.
But to be honest, I have no interest to doscuss any further with you since you constantly talked down to me and behaved like an asshole. It is just not worth the effort. So fuck that, believe what you want.
I just laid down the fact, that this shitty idea of the nation state, that came into fashion in the 19th century laid the ideological groundwork to many of the astrocities in the following two centuries. This is common knowledge.
Proof by assertion is a logical fallacy, not evidence.
A nation is not a thing that exists. There are different forms of cultures that can develop together or go in different directions
Yes, they do. They’re not eternal as they do get created, killed, and changed all the time. However, nations, as a concept, do represent a real phenomenon.
depending on who is in power and who draws the borders.
States and nations aren’t interchangeable terms. Japan is a nation state, my home country of Iraq is very much not.
But to be honest, I have no interest to doscuss any further with you since you constantly talked down to me and behaved like an asshole. It is just not worth the effort. So fuck that, believe what you want.
I went out of my way to make sure that my comment didn’t have any personal insults. My comment had so much substance that directly responded to your points, and it’s interesting that you responded to none of it. My comment contained a grand total of 3 criticisms, all of which were directed towards your statements.
If this is all it takes for you to get this sort of reaction then there are two possibilities. Either you’re really this sensitive and somebody saying one of your arguments is from 2014 tumblr is enough to send you over the edge or, and I think is much more likely, is that you actually have nothing of value to say and this was just a convenient cop out. Either way, I don’t care, I’ve made my points and they stand on their own. Whether you reply or not makes no difference.
Nah, fuck that. Patriotism is just nationalism light.
I had a pledge that I would buy a Union-made American Flag and plant it firmly in my lawn if two things happened (1) Harris was elected President, and (2) Trump served any prison time.
Nationalism fuels fascism, but I think patriotism can be a healthy pride; sort of like how one distinguishes confidence from arrogance.
Ultimately patriotism is a neutral term and is decided upon whether you agree with your national identity in both where your nation is, and where it is heading. I naturally don’t agree with either at present, and so I’m not patriotic. Some are patriotic for the wrong reasons. If we get back to our roots, then I will perhaps one day have pride in being an American again.
Exactly. It’s the gateway drug to fascism.
Fuck it all.
Is there anything that you don’t think is a gateway drug to fascism?
Interesting. Color me skeptical, but I’ve been around for a minute, and that smacks of bait.
It’s not bait, it’s criticism
No, it simply is not.
It’s a loaded, low-effort question that puts the onus on your target and required nothing from you at all.
That said, if it wasn’t in bad faith, I welcome you to try again. Otherwise, I can easily find better things to do than waste more time on trolls, friendo.
You can dance in circles all you want, it’s not going to change anything. You’re taking concepts that have nothing to do with fascism and attributing them to it regardless. Saying patriotism a gateway drug to fascism is like saying “community is a gateway drug to cults.” Just because both involve belonging and loyalty doesn’t mean one inevitably leads to the other. It’s the distortion, not the foundation, that creates danger.
Trying to twist something that’s normal, healthy, and even necessary like patriotism or community into something toxic, shows that you’re disingenuous, which is ironic considering your spiel here. Just because you say something is poisonous that doesn’t that it is.
Oh, you silly frothy fuckwit. I simply called out your bullshit “question”, and was clearly accurate in presuming it was, in fact, bait.
Your attempts to weaponize the word salad sloshing around in that soggy head aren’t doing you any favors, so how about this:
Read a fucking book that isn’t Mein Kampf.
Don’t forget to breathe. (optional)
Bye, Felisha.
BTW, for those playing along at home, “community” is essential. “Patriotism” is not. Don’t suffer these idiots. Call them out, every time. You are not alone, friends. We got this. ✊🏼
So let me get this straight. You made a stupid claim, got criticized for it, tried to beat around the bush, and when you got called out, you threw a temper tantrum? I’m not surprised, but it goes to show that people like you lack the ability to defend your views on their own merits. But hey, why stand by your beliefs when you could just cope by appealing to the masses (nobody is reading this thread btw)…
I have to disagree. Without at least a little pride or the want to have pride in where we come from, what incentive is there to do things like cataloging history or preserving cultures and languages. I don’t think all cultures are objectively or subjectively good by any stretch, but their information, knowledge, and ritual is 100% worth cataloging and knowing, if anything just to preserve knowledge of what not to do.
For example, the confederate south. Is it worth keeping up monuments and statues honoring the traitors? Absolutely not. Is it worth keeping knowledge of what happened so that we might not repeat it? Absolutely. Without a healthy amount of patriotism, in this case the hope that where we come from can improve, why wouldn’t we just wipe away that history and pretend it didn’t happen? That’s a major line where it switches from patriotism to nationalism.
But mostly it’s just the want to improve where you’re from that’s why I believe you should have a healthy amount of patriotism. Without it, why bother doing anything at all, from protesting to
riotingviolent encouragement to do something different.Anyways, hope that what my overly caffeinated brain wrote down makes sense
You do not need to love your nation-state to want to preserve history or learn from the past.
That is such warped logic.
And nationalism is bad, because? Nationalism when taken to the extreme can be bad because it’s extreme, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with nationalism.
If you cannot see, why the ideology that brought us both World Wars, Russias war against Ukraine and so many more modern conflicts, was the base of colonialism and neo-colonialism, imperialism, 20th century slavery, fascism, zionism and that let us buold borders where thousands die every year, you are lost.
This is just a piss poor understanding of history, nationalism, and geopolitics.
Let’s take the Ukraine war as an example. Russia is not a nation state, it’s an empire. Empires are usually multiethnic, hierarchical, and expansionist, ruling over diverse peoples through centralized authority and often unequal legal or political status. Ukraine, on the other hand, is a nation state because it’s organized around a shared national identity that is defined by common language, culture, or ethnicity, and it treats all of its citizens as equals under the law. This war is basically between Russian imperialists who want to expand the empire and Ukrainian nationalists who want to defend their nation.
Using your flawed logic, Ukrainians are bad people because they believe in and are actively defending an ideology that you falsely attribute to everything bad to has ever happened in the world and in history. That’s just nonsense.
Your example is very bad, to be honest. Both Russia and Ukraine are states. All states today claim to be nations. Every nation is a social construct, made by inventing or at least warping history to explain the creation of a nation. States tend to equalize the people living on it’s territory by introducing things like law, language, traditions or education. And they are actively trying to tell this story of “the people” to legitimate themselves. But the people are not the same. Look at your own country, wherever you live. There are always vast differences between places in different cardinal directions or at the borders vs. inland, between richer and poorer regions or between urban and rural areas. In Russia, that becomes very obvious, but it is the same everywhere.
Nationalism is the root of everything, I described. Nothing of that would have existed without a strong nationalist movement. Sure, there can be more or less extreme forms of nationalism, but this ideoligy is always dividing territory and people into the inside and outside.
Every Ukrainian fighting against Russian imperialism is fine. But at the end, I hope there are more people left to rebuilt the country, who fought for their freedom and not for some fucking glorious Father/Motherland.
2014 tumblr called, they want their arguments back. Calling something a social construct does NOT mean it’s bad, fake, or invalid. Math is a social construct, time is a social construct, language is a social construct… yet these are all good things that describe things that are very real, and their existence is very much valid. The idea of a nation state falls under this category.
And this is a bad thing, because? I don’t see an issue with a state trying to unite people through their commonalities. If you want a large group of people to be involved and coordinated then you have to make them feel included, and this is the way to do it.
So? There is always going to be a degree of diversity among people, geography, and economies. That doesn’t mean that nations don’t exist. A Chinese person is Chinese regardless of whether or not they’re rich or poor, live near the border or not, or live in the city or a farm. They’re Chinese by ancestry, by language, and by culture. You could make an argument that some states occupy other nations, and that’s a bad thing, and I would agree with you. China is a good example of that as they occupy Tibet, Xinjiang, and Inner Mongolia… however, the Chinese nation still exists and it deserves it’s own state even if the borders need to redrawn.
The reason why I called Russia an empire is because it is one by definition. It checks every single check mark required to consider it an empire and then some. They can call themselves whatever they want, it doesn’t mean anything in reality. It’s like North Korea calling itself a democracy when it’s clearly not. Unlike Russia, Ukraine is a true nation state, or at least a lot closer to one than Russia is.
That’s such a myopic view of history that it’s actually ignorant. If you unironically think that you can boil down most of history down to an ideology a concept you barely understand and then consider this singular ideology to be the root cause of everything bad in history then you simply don’t understand history.
But have you ever thought about why nations and states exist in the first place? From the start of civilization 10,000 years ago to today, countries and border have always existed regardless of culture, geography, or era. What makes so persistent throughout history? Could it be that because it’s an essential part of civilization and it’s an inherently useful concept even if it’s not perfect? The answer is yes.
These two things are intertwined. They’re fighting for their father/motherland, aka their nation, against imperialist conquest because it’s where their roots are. The nation is where their families are, where their culture is, where the history of their people took place, and where their freedoms and rights are.
Also, people like you annoy me because you complain without providing any alternatives. You hate nationalism as a concept? Fine, what do you propose as an alternative? If you have a realistic, practical option then let’s hear it. Otherwise, if you have nothing other than vague ideological complaints then you critiques don’t hold as much weight.
I never tried to boil down most of history to anything. I just laid down the fact, that this shitty idea of the nation state, that came into fashion in the 19th century laid the ideological groundwork to many of the astrocities in the following two centuries. This is common knowledge.
A nation is not a thing that exists. There are different forms of cultures that can develop together or go in different directions, depending on who is in power and who draws the borders. If you where really interested in history, you could know that. The whole of Europe is a great example, or the Koreas.
But to be honest, I have no interest to doscuss any further with you since you constantly talked down to me and behaved like an asshole. It is just not worth the effort. So fuck that, believe what you want.
Proof by assertion is a logical fallacy, not evidence.
Yes, they do. They’re not eternal as they do get created, killed, and changed all the time. However, nations, as a concept, do represent a real phenomenon.
States and nations aren’t interchangeable terms. Japan is a nation state, my home country of Iraq is very much not.
I went out of my way to make sure that my comment didn’t have any personal insults. My comment had so much substance that directly responded to your points, and it’s interesting that you responded to none of it. My comment contained a grand total of 3 criticisms, all of which were directed towards your statements.
If this is all it takes for you to get this sort of reaction then there are two possibilities. Either you’re really this sensitive and somebody saying one of your arguments is from 2014 tumblr is enough to send you over the edge or, and I think is much more likely, is that you actually have nothing of value to say and this was just a convenient cop out. Either way, I don’t care, I’ve made my points and they stand on their own. Whether you reply or not makes no difference.