All we can say is “that seems weird” but that’s not a scientific argument against it.
You say it diverges from reality but… how do you know that? No experiment has ever demonstrated this.
On the contrary, this breaks semi-classical gravity’s usage of quantum mechanics. The predictions the approximation makes are not compatible with our observations of how quantum mechanics works, and scientists are working on an experiment that can disprove the hypothesis. ( https://doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevLett.133.180201 )
Science is not falsifiability. Science is about continually updating our models to resolve contradictions between the theory and experimental practice. If there is no contradiction between the theory and experimental practice then there is no justification to update the model.
I’m afraid you’ve got that precisely backwards. Falsifiability is the core of science, as it is the method by which factually-deficient hypotheses are discarded. If there is no contradiction between the theory and experimental practice then either all false theories have been discarded or we have overlooked an experiment that could prove otherwise.
I have seen a mentality growing more popular these days which is that “fundamental physics hasn’t made progress in nearly a century.”
That’s distinctly false. The Higgs Boson was only proposed in 1964 and wasn’t measured 'til just 13 years ago.
But my response to this is why should it make progress?
Because we still have falsifiable hypotheses to test.
Why have not encountered a contradiction between experimental practice and theory, so all this “research” into things like String Theory is just guesswork, there is no reason to expect it to actually go anywhere.
We have, actually. The list of unsolved problems in physics on Wikipedia is like 15 pages long and we’re developing new experiments to address those questions constantly.
There is no reason to assume the universe acts the way we’d like it to. Maybe the laws of physics really are just convoluted and break down at black holes.
Likewise, there’s no reason to assume that the universe is not acting the way we’d like it to except where contradicted by observable evidence. If the laws of physics can “break down” then they aren’t “laws”, merely approximations that are only accurate under a limited range of conditions. The fact that the universe continues to exist despite the flaws in our theories proves that there must be a set of rules which are applicable in all cases.
And if the rules can change, then our theories will have to be updated to describe those changes and the conditions where they occur.
On the contrary, this breaks semi-classical gravity’s usage of quantum mechanics. The predictions the approximation makes are not compatible with our observations of how quantum mechanics works, and scientists are working on an experiment that can disprove the hypothesis. ( https://doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevLett.133.180201 )
The paper is interesting and in the right direction but is just a proposal. It needs to actually be performed, because the results can finally point in the right direction rather than just guessing at what the right direction is.
I’m afraid you’ve got that precisely backwards. Falsifiability is the core of science
No, it’s a justification for pseudoscience by allowing anyone to invent anything out of whole cloth based on absolutely nothing at all and call it “science.”
as it is the method by which factually-deficient hypotheses are discarded
Except it’s precisely used to justify them.
If there is no contradiction between the theory and experimental practice then either all false theories have been discarded or we have overlooked an experiment that could prove otherwise.
Those two, or the third case that we just haven’t conducted the experiment yet that would contradict with current theories (still talking about GR/QFT here specifically).
That’s distinctly false. The Higgs Boson was only proposed in 1964 and wasn’t measured 'til just 13 years ago.
I am obviously not defending that position and you know for a fact that is a position that has gained a lot of steam recently, you’re just trying to annoyingly turn it around on me to make it seem like I am defending a position I am not by stating something rather obvious.
Because we still have falsifiable hypotheses to test.
And this is exactly why you’re a promoter of pseudoscience: if a theory is “falsifiable” it’s “science” and “needs to be tested,” even if it’s literally based on nothing and there is no good reason anyone should take it seriously. If I claim there is a magical teapot orbiting Saturn that is the cause of some of its currently not well-understood weather patterns and if you just built a specialized 20 billion dollar telescope with a special lens on it and pointed it at specific coordinates you’d discover the proof, technically you can falsify this claim so by your logic it’s “science” and therefore we should go out of our way to investigate it. I don’t get why it is so difficult to just accept that there is more to a reasonable scientific proposal than it just technically can be falsified. That is obviously not a sufficient criteria at all and treating it as just allows for a ton of factually-deficient hypotheses based on nothing to be taken seriously.
Whatever bullshit nonsense or mysticism someone makes up, as long as there is technically some way to conduct an experiment to falsify it, you will say that’s “science.” Popper has been complete poison to the academic discourse. In the past I would have to argue against laymen mystics, the equivalent of the modern day “quantum healing” types. But these days I don’t even care about those mystics because we have much more problematic mystics: those in academia who promote nonsense like “quantum immortality” and “quantum consciousness” or whatever new “multiverse” theory someone came up with based on pure sophistry, and they pass this off as genuine science, and we are expected to take it seriously by because “erm it technically can be falsified.”
Although, my magic teapot analogy isn’t even good because the analogy says the teapot is proposed to explain not well-understood weather patterns, so it is proposed to explain an actual problem we haven’t solved. A more accurate analogy would be for a person to claim that they believe the hexagon cloud on Saturn should actually be a triangle. Why? No reason, they just feel it should be a triangle, because triangles seem more natural to them. According to you, again, this is technically still science because technically their theory can indeed be falsified by building the special telescope and pointing it at those coordinates.
It’s impossible to combat pseudoscience mentality in the public and to combat things like quantum mysticism when some of the #1 promoters of quantum mysticism these days are academics themselves. Half the time when I see a completely absurd headline saying that quantum mechanics proves material reality doesn’t exist and “everything is consciousness,” or that quantum mechanics proves we’re immortal, or that quantum mechanics proves we live inside of a multiverse or a simulation, I click the article to see the source and no, it doesn’t go back to a Deepak Chopra sophist, it goes back to “legitimate” publications by an actual academic with credentials in the field who is taken seriously because “falsifiability.”
How am I supposed to then tell the laymen the article they’re reading is bologna? I can’t, because they don’t understand quantum physics, so they wouldn’t even have the tools to understand it if I explained to them why it’s wrong, so they just trust it because it’s written by someone with “credentials.” Mysticism in academia is way more serious than mysticism among laymen because even otherwise reasonable laymen who do view science positively will end up believing in mysticism if it is backed an academic.
We have, actually. The list of unsolved problems in physics on Wikipedia is like 15 pages long and we’re developing new experiments to address those questions constantly.
Why are you intentionally being intellectually dishonest? We have been talking about a very specific theory and a very specific field of research this whole time, and you are trying to deflect this to science generally. I am sorry I even engaged with you at all, you are not in any way intellectually honest in the slightest and intentionally trying to misrepresent everything I say to “own” me and constantly are trying to pretend my position is something that it is not.
By criticizing a small handful of pseudoproblems in science you are now trying to dishonestly pretend I am claiming there are no genuinely unsolved problems, because you don’t want to actually address my point and are just a hack and I am blocking you after this post for such a ridiculously dishonest way to try and smear me rather than just address my point.
Likewise, there’s no reason to assume that the universe is not acting the way we’d like it to except where contradicted by observable evidence.
We should just assume the universe is behaving exactly the way we observe it to behave based on the evidence.
What we “like” is irrelevant. We should just observe the evidence and accept that is how the universe works until additional evidence shows otherwise.
If the laws of physics can “break down” then they aren’t “laws”, merely approximations that are only accurate under a limited range of conditions.
Plenty of laws of physics are only applicable to certain conditions, like the ideal gas law. Although, that’s not the impression I got from this conversation on how you were using “break down” in the first place, as we were talking about semi-classical gravity where you have singularities at black holes, and you were using “break down” in that sense. There is no change in the law of physics at black holes in semi-classical gravity, the singularity arises from the very structure of the theory and is not in contradiction with it, i.e. its fundamental principles don’t suddenly change at a black hole. The singularity at the black hole is a result of its underlying principles.
The fact that the universe continues to exist despite the flaws in our theories proves that there must be a set of rules which are applicable in all cases.
You want them to apply to cases that currently have not been demonstrated by physically even possible to probe, so you have not even demonstrated it is an actual “case” at all. I am not denying it isn’t physically possible to probe either before you dishonestly try to turn my statement around to intentionally misrepresent me as you love to do. I am saying quite the opposite: that we should try to probe the areas that seem to not make much in our current theories. We should be trying to probe quantum effects and gravitational effects at the same time to see how they behave, because that’s how we could actually make progress if semi-classical gravity is indeed wrong.
We shouldn’t be constantly inventing fake “theories” based on literally nothing that are technically falsifiable then acting surprised when they are falsified, and then slightly tweaking them so they are not longer falsified with the previous experiment but still technically falsifiable with a future experiment. This would be like if you pointed the expensive telescope at Saturn and did not see the magical teapot, so I just changed my mind and said the teapot is actually orbiting Neptune so we need a bigger telescope and then the theory would be falsified!
I could play this game forever and keep tweaking my nonsensical claim every time it is falsified, and according to you this is science! What I am saying is this is not science because science is not just falsifiability. There are tons of genuinely unsolved problems in science, but there are also a small number of “problems” which are poorly motivated, like the “fine-tuning problem” which is also not a genuine scientific problem.
It’s really like 99.9% of the stuff in physics that’s perfectly fine. Most people in the real world are actually working on practical problems and not nonsense like “quantum consciousness” or whatever. The handful of people I am criticizing is largely a small minority, but they have a huge impact on public discourse and public understanding of science as they tend to be very vocal
And if the rules can change, then our theories will have to be updated to describe those changes and the conditions where they occur.
On the contrary, this breaks semi-classical gravity’s usage of quantum mechanics. The predictions the approximation makes are not compatible with our observations of how quantum mechanics works, and scientists are working on an experiment that can disprove the hypothesis. ( https://doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevLett.133.180201 )
I’m afraid you’ve got that precisely backwards. Falsifiability is the core of science, as it is the method by which factually-deficient hypotheses are discarded. If there is no contradiction between the theory and experimental practice then either all false theories have been discarded or we have overlooked an experiment that could prove otherwise.
That’s distinctly false. The Higgs Boson was only proposed in 1964 and wasn’t measured 'til just 13 years ago.
Because we still have falsifiable hypotheses to test.
We have, actually. The list of unsolved problems in physics on Wikipedia is like 15 pages long and we’re developing new experiments to address those questions constantly.
Likewise, there’s no reason to assume that the universe is not acting the way we’d like it to except where contradicted by observable evidence. If the laws of physics can “break down” then they aren’t “laws”, merely approximations that are only accurate under a limited range of conditions. The fact that the universe continues to exist despite the flaws in our theories proves that there must be a set of rules which are applicable in all cases.
And if the rules can change, then our theories will have to be updated to describe those changes and the conditions where they occur.
The paper is interesting and in the right direction but is just a proposal. It needs to actually be performed, because the results can finally point in the right direction rather than just guessing at what the right direction is.
No, it’s a justification for pseudoscience by allowing anyone to invent anything out of whole cloth based on absolutely nothing at all and call it “science.”
Except it’s precisely used to justify them.
Those two, or the third case that we just haven’t conducted the experiment yet that would contradict with current theories (still talking about GR/QFT here specifically).
I am obviously not defending that position and you know for a fact that is a position that has gained a lot of steam recently, you’re just trying to annoyingly turn it around on me to make it seem like I am defending a position I am not by stating something rather obvious.
And this is exactly why you’re a promoter of pseudoscience: if a theory is “falsifiable” it’s “science” and “needs to be tested,” even if it’s literally based on nothing and there is no good reason anyone should take it seriously. If I claim there is a magical teapot orbiting Saturn that is the cause of some of its currently not well-understood weather patterns and if you just built a specialized 20 billion dollar telescope with a special lens on it and pointed it at specific coordinates you’d discover the proof, technically you can falsify this claim so by your logic it’s “science” and therefore we should go out of our way to investigate it. I don’t get why it is so difficult to just accept that there is more to a reasonable scientific proposal than it just technically can be falsified. That is obviously not a sufficient criteria at all and treating it as just allows for a ton of factually-deficient hypotheses based on nothing to be taken seriously.
Whatever bullshit nonsense or mysticism someone makes up, as long as there is technically some way to conduct an experiment to falsify it, you will say that’s “science.” Popper has been complete poison to the academic discourse. In the past I would have to argue against laymen mystics, the equivalent of the modern day “quantum healing” types. But these days I don’t even care about those mystics because we have much more problematic mystics: those in academia who promote nonsense like “quantum immortality” and “quantum consciousness” or whatever new “multiverse” theory someone came up with based on pure sophistry, and they pass this off as genuine science, and we are expected to take it seriously by because “erm it technically can be falsified.”
Although, my magic teapot analogy isn’t even good because the analogy says the teapot is proposed to explain not well-understood weather patterns, so it is proposed to explain an actual problem we haven’t solved. A more accurate analogy would be for a person to claim that they believe the hexagon cloud on Saturn should actually be a triangle. Why? No reason, they just feel it should be a triangle, because triangles seem more natural to them. According to you, again, this is technically still science because technically their theory can indeed be falsified by building the special telescope and pointing it at those coordinates.
It’s impossible to combat pseudoscience mentality in the public and to combat things like quantum mysticism when some of the #1 promoters of quantum mysticism these days are academics themselves. Half the time when I see a completely absurd headline saying that quantum mechanics proves material reality doesn’t exist and “everything is consciousness,” or that quantum mechanics proves we’re immortal, or that quantum mechanics proves we live inside of a multiverse or a simulation, I click the article to see the source and no, it doesn’t go back to a Deepak Chopra sophist, it goes back to “legitimate” publications by an actual academic with credentials in the field who is taken seriously because “falsifiability.”
How am I supposed to then tell the laymen the article they’re reading is bologna? I can’t, because they don’t understand quantum physics, so they wouldn’t even have the tools to understand it if I explained to them why it’s wrong, so they just trust it because it’s written by someone with “credentials.” Mysticism in academia is way more serious than mysticism among laymen because even otherwise reasonable laymen who do view science positively will end up believing in mysticism if it is backed an academic.
Why are you intentionally being intellectually dishonest? We have been talking about a very specific theory and a very specific field of research this whole time, and you are trying to deflect this to science generally. I am sorry I even engaged with you at all, you are not in any way intellectually honest in the slightest and intentionally trying to misrepresent everything I say to “own” me and constantly are trying to pretend my position is something that it is not.
By criticizing a small handful of pseudoproblems in science you are now trying to dishonestly pretend I am claiming there are no genuinely unsolved problems, because you don’t want to actually address my point and are just a hack and I am blocking you after this post for such a ridiculously dishonest way to try and smear me rather than just address my point.
We should just assume the universe is behaving exactly the way we observe it to behave based on the evidence.
What we “like” is irrelevant. We should just observe the evidence and accept that is how the universe works until additional evidence shows otherwise.
Plenty of laws of physics are only applicable to certain conditions, like the ideal gas law. Although, that’s not the impression I got from this conversation on how you were using “break down” in the first place, as we were talking about semi-classical gravity where you have singularities at black holes, and you were using “break down” in that sense. There is no change in the law of physics at black holes in semi-classical gravity, the singularity arises from the very structure of the theory and is not in contradiction with it, i.e. its fundamental principles don’t suddenly change at a black hole. The singularity at the black hole is a result of its underlying principles.
You want them to apply to cases that currently have not been demonstrated by physically even possible to probe, so you have not even demonstrated it is an actual “case” at all. I am not denying it isn’t physically possible to probe either before you dishonestly try to turn my statement around to intentionally misrepresent me as you love to do. I am saying quite the opposite: that we should try to probe the areas that seem to not make much in our current theories. We should be trying to probe quantum effects and gravitational effects at the same time to see how they behave, because that’s how we could actually make progress if semi-classical gravity is indeed wrong.
We shouldn’t be constantly inventing fake “theories” based on literally nothing that are technically falsifiable then acting surprised when they are falsified, and then slightly tweaking them so they are not longer falsified with the previous experiment but still technically falsifiable with a future experiment. This would be like if you pointed the expensive telescope at Saturn and did not see the magical teapot, so I just changed my mind and said the teapot is actually orbiting Neptune so we need a bigger telescope and then the theory would be falsified!
I could play this game forever and keep tweaking my nonsensical claim every time it is falsified, and according to you this is science! What I am saying is this is not science because science is not just falsifiability. There are tons of genuinely unsolved problems in science, but there are also a small number of “problems” which are poorly motivated, like the “fine-tuning problem” which is also not a genuine scientific problem.
It’s really like 99.9% of the stuff in physics that’s perfectly fine. Most people in the real world are actually working on practical problems and not nonsense like “quantum consciousness” or whatever. The handful of people I am criticizing is largely a small minority, but they have a huge impact on public discourse and public understanding of science as they tend to be very vocal
Obviously.