Deals cannot be brokered with Putin under any circumstance. It cannot be done. There will never be a peace deal with Putin. You can just throw that idea right into the fucking dumpster.
That is just wrong, van Aken even explicitly said, that any peace without Ukraine at the table and that gives Russia territory is unacceptable. You may call their methods naïve and ineffectual, but they do not want capitulation, and myths like “NATO is responsible for the war” have also gone away with BSW leaving the party.
Yeah, I’m not worried as anyone with the slightest clue of German politics knows that your claim is the unsubstantiate one.
Die Linke only gives lipservice to Ukraine’s right of self-defense while it has consistently denoucned weapon exports to Ukraine, like here when they demanded we don’t send any tanks. And that’s just one example of their questionable positions.
Your rhetoric is pretty good but your facts arent.
Since we are writing in english, I took the liberty to translate the bulletpoints, using google (sorry):
THE LEFT calls on the federal government not to deliver Leopard 2 tanks or heavy weapons to Ukraine.
The EU and the federal government must launch diplomatic initiatives to break out of the logic of war and escalation.
Ceasefire negotiations must begin under the auspices of the United Nations.
All sides must guarantee that they will not use nuclear weapons. Germany must join the nuclear weapons ban treaty.
Humanitarian aid for Ukraine. Debts must be forgiven.
Rapid aid for all refugees. Conscientious objectors from Russia and Ukraine must be granted asylum.
The arms companies are making extra profits from the war. These profits must be subject to an excess profit tax!
The EU must introduce an asset register to better combat money laundering and the assets of Russian oligarchs.
Stop militarization! The war in Ukraine has already been used to upgrade the German army with 100 billion euros. Now the moaning about the German army allegedly being “ruined” by cuts has started again and 300 billion euros for the military is being discussed. What madness! Instead, the federal government is not thinking about the hospitals that have been ruined by cuts and the dilapidated schools.
Although I am by no means always agreeing with all the points of “Die Linke”, I do agree with most of them. The profiteering must stop and the slow drip of weapons that perpetuates this war must be ended. Either by escalating or deescalating. Both have drawbacks.
The issue here is that we are not in America so what Trump does and doesnt is not our concern when arguing who to vote for. Because in that case, Trump and Elon are Supporting the Afd, same as the CDU and FDP.
The most important part for me is stopping the insanity of xenophobia and perverse profits. Those are at the heart of our issues. Both the ukraine war and the other issues we currently have are directly caused by people with certain traits trying to gain ever more power. Be it Putin, Besos, Weidel, Merz, Musk, Trump and so on. We need to stop the massive increase of cost of living and instead increase the living wage.
I do agree that giving russia anything FROM Ukraine to make them Stop is not an option in my book. This is not something I can guarantee by voting for anyone but I can guarantee that we dont have right-right-center-right government and have a socialist voice in there.
Disagree if you want but I dont think I spread misinfo.
Edit: I am a subscriber of the TAZ, from which the article you posted is. Here is the head of the party, talking about exactly your point. I encourage you to read it. https://taz.de/Comeback-der-Linkspartei/!6067299/
The EU and the federal government must launch diplomatic initiatives to break out of the logic of war and escalation.
Ceasefire negotiations must begin under the auspices of the United Nations.
But the reality is that Russia currently is not willing to negotiate under any reasonable terms, so that is all just pointless posturing. Diplomatic channels have been open the entire time.
Not sending weapons is just helping Russia to get into a position where they can force negotiations with their demands on us. So yeah, I think calling them “pro Ukraine” is misinformation.
I don’t believe that most Die Linke members are activily pro Russian. But their views on foreign policy is so idealistic it’s just naive and completely disconnected from reality. And throwing another country under the bus for your naive idealism is definitely not being “pro” that country.
The most important part for me is stopping the insanity of xenophobia and perverse profits.
For me it is stopping Russia.
Those are at the heart of our issues. Both the ukraine war and the other issues we currently have are directly caused by people with certain traits trying to gain ever more power. Be it Putin, Besos, Weidel, Merz, Musk, Trump and so on. We need to stop the massive increase of cost of living and instead increase the living wage.
Those are factors. But the situation with Russia also has deep geopolitical roots that go beyond just xenophobia and wealth inequality. But yeah, those are also problems that need solving. Though even if those were magically solved in Germany by the next election, that wouldn’t stop Russia right now. This is not a situation where we have time so solve some root cause globally.
And I think, domestically, die Linke has a very good policies. If they did 180 their foreign policy I’d vote for them in heartbeat. But as it is, they are federally unelectable and any possible coallition with them must be prevented.
I do agree that giving russia anything FROM Ukraine to make them Stop is not an option in my book.
Well, then the only other option is sending support in any form. Because Russia will demand things from Ukraine unless they are in a position were they can’t.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my points in a civilized and detailed manner. I appreciate it a lot.
I feel the need to point something out though:
We currently have millions of people in germany who suffer from not enough food, homelessness, etc. The only party that has a working concept for this and who will not be able to stop the weapons supply for ukraine anyway, is worse than the ones trying to go against human rights by illegally reimplementing border controls and push refugees out of the country?
I have thought about that a bit. I guess we just have different priorities.
The only party that has a working concept for this and who will not be able to stop the weapons supply for ukraine anyway
They also won’t be able to implement their concept as the smallest partner in a 3 way coallition. If they could, they’d also be able to influence decisions on weapon deliveries. But they really can’t do either, so what would be the point voting for them?
the ones trying to go against human rights by illegally reimplementing border controls and push refugees out of the country?
Well, sadly that is all the other partie right now … it sucks, yeah.
I’m quite pro immigration, I’m really quite tired of the constant fearmongering with the car and knife attacks. But at the end of the day the issue isn’t as important to me as having a solid foreign policy right now. But I absolutly hated this election. Choose between the giant douche and the turd sandwich …
I agree. We do have different alternatives but I respect your view.
I think one detail needs mentioning though.
If our domestic situation does not improve, our foreign affairs will deteriorate due to instability and ultimately fascism. It is important to stabilize ones own country first to be able to help others. It is counterintuitive but thats the reason why in airplane emergency situations the parent is supposed to take care of themselves first (oxygen) and then the child because the chances for survival of both drop significantly otherwise.
By this logic, having people (including ukrainians) starve does not help ukraine and especially not their citizens.
And that brings me to the size of “die linke”. They were the ones who brought the living wage afaik. Its not like they cant get anything done. Its that they cant do anything harsh. They are bound to less extreme measures by compromising but we need the left in the government to keep the right somewhat in check. So no, no vote is wasted imho.
This is misinformation. Die linke is pro ukraine and wants to broker a deal with them at the table to get them peace instead of more death.
BSW and CDU want to stop refugees from entering and send them back home.
The CDU has brought a legislative proposal in a FIRST with the new german nazi party and directly went back on their promise never to do this.
Deals cannot be brokered with Putin under any circumstance. It cannot be done. There will never be a peace deal with Putin. You can just throw that idea right into the fucking dumpster.
Die Linke want capitulation. That is not something I can support.
That is just wrong, van Aken even explicitly said, that any peace without Ukraine at the table and that gives Russia territory is unacceptable. You may call their methods naïve and ineffectual, but they do not want capitulation, and myths like “NATO is responsible for the war” have also gone away with BSW leaving the party.
Dang things are heated over there too it seems I happy for my small boring country for once…
Thats already different from what you said first, making my point.
But on a more constructive note: please cite sources. I will happily agree with you if you can.
No, you are spreading misinformation. They indeed want peace … the same way Trump does. By appeaseing and making conessions to Russia.
If you want to be taken seriously, feel free to substantiate your claim. Otherwise my word is as good as yours.
Yeah, I’m not worried as anyone with the slightest clue of German politics knows that your claim is the unsubstantiate one.
Die Linke only gives lipservice to Ukraine’s right of self-defense while it has consistently denoucned weapon exports to Ukraine, like here when they demanded we don’t send any tanks. And that’s just one example of their questionable positions.
https://taz.de/Linke-und-Ukraine-Krieg/!6034147/
So stop spreading misinformation, k?
Your rhetoric is pretty good but your facts arent.
Since we are writing in english, I took the liberty to translate the bulletpoints, using google (sorry):
Although I am by no means always agreeing with all the points of “Die Linke”, I do agree with most of them. The profiteering must stop and the slow drip of weapons that perpetuates this war must be ended. Either by escalating or deescalating. Both have drawbacks.
The issue here is that we are not in America so what Trump does and doesnt is not our concern when arguing who to vote for. Because in that case, Trump and Elon are Supporting the Afd, same as the CDU and FDP.
The most important part for me is stopping the insanity of xenophobia and perverse profits. Those are at the heart of our issues. Both the ukraine war and the other issues we currently have are directly caused by people with certain traits trying to gain ever more power. Be it Putin, Besos, Weidel, Merz, Musk, Trump and so on. We need to stop the massive increase of cost of living and instead increase the living wage.
I do agree that giving russia anything FROM Ukraine to make them Stop is not an option in my book. This is not something I can guarantee by voting for anyone but I can guarantee that we dont have right-right-center-right government and have a socialist voice in there.
Disagree if you want but I dont think I spread misinfo.
Edit: I am a subscriber of the TAZ, from which the article you posted is. Here is the head of the party, talking about exactly your point. I encourage you to read it. https://taz.de/Comeback-der-Linkspartei/!6067299/
But the reality is that Russia currently is not willing to negotiate under any reasonable terms, so that is all just pointless posturing. Diplomatic channels have been open the entire time.
Not sending weapons is just helping Russia to get into a position where they can force negotiations with their demands on us. So yeah, I think calling them “pro Ukraine” is misinformation.
I don’t believe that most Die Linke members are activily pro Russian. But their views on foreign policy is so idealistic it’s just naive and completely disconnected from reality. And throwing another country under the bus for your naive idealism is definitely not being “pro” that country.
For me it is stopping Russia.
Those are factors. But the situation with Russia also has deep geopolitical roots that go beyond just xenophobia and wealth inequality. But yeah, those are also problems that need solving. Though even if those were magically solved in Germany by the next election, that wouldn’t stop Russia right now. This is not a situation where we have time so solve some root cause globally.
And I think, domestically, die Linke has a very good policies. If they did 180 their foreign policy I’d vote for them in heartbeat. But as it is, they are federally unelectable and any possible coallition with them must be prevented.
Well, then the only other option is sending support in any form. Because Russia will demand things from Ukraine unless they are in a position were they can’t.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my points in a civilized and detailed manner. I appreciate it a lot.
I feel the need to point something out though:
We currently have millions of people in germany who suffer from not enough food, homelessness, etc. The only party that has a working concept for this and who will not be able to stop the weapons supply for ukraine anyway, is worse than the ones trying to go against human rights by illegally reimplementing border controls and push refugees out of the country?
I think you might want to think about that again.
I have thought about that a bit. I guess we just have different priorities.
They also won’t be able to implement their concept as the smallest partner in a 3 way coallition. If they could, they’d also be able to influence decisions on weapon deliveries. But they really can’t do either, so what would be the point voting for them?
Well, sadly that is all the other partie right now … it sucks, yeah.
I’m quite pro immigration, I’m really quite tired of the constant fearmongering with the car and knife attacks. But at the end of the day the issue isn’t as important to me as having a solid foreign policy right now. But I absolutly hated this election. Choose between the giant douche and the turd sandwich …
I agree. We do have different alternatives but I respect your view.
I think one detail needs mentioning though.
If our domestic situation does not improve, our foreign affairs will deteriorate due to instability and ultimately fascism. It is important to stabilize ones own country first to be able to help others. It is counterintuitive but thats the reason why in airplane emergency situations the parent is supposed to take care of themselves first (oxygen) and then the child because the chances for survival of both drop significantly otherwise.
By this logic, having people (including ukrainians) starve does not help ukraine and especially not their citizens.
And that brings me to the size of “die linke”. They were the ones who brought the living wage afaik. Its not like they cant get anything done. Its that they cant do anything harsh. They are bound to less extreme measures by compromising but we need the left in the government to keep the right somewhat in check. So no, no vote is wasted imho.