• purahna@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      You’re getting a lot of flak (rightly), but I figured I’d actually give you a right definition so this can be a growing opportunity: If you own a resource and you use that resource to produce profit, that resource is private property. If you’re not making profit, it’s only personal property. Farm for your family? Personal property. Farm where you give the output to your community? Personal property. Farm where you sell the yields? Private property.

      • coltorl@programming.dev
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        1 year ago

        Ok, so exploitable land (a means of production) can be owned for the exclusive enjoyment of an individual in a socialist economy. Got it, thanks.

        • purahna@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          Yes, exploitable land can be owned by an individual in a socialist economy. If you’re growing food for your family, then that’s just one family the state doesn’t have to feed. If you’re growing food for your community, then that’s several mouths the state doesn’t have to feed. If you’re hoarding or selling food (or in one very famous historical case, burning it out of spite), then you are monopolizing a resource that could be feeding people, and the state will intervene, whether by buying your land back from you, taking it from you, liquidating you as a class, or some other solution to be determined by the state in question - there is no one size fits all blueprint to socialism.

          • coltorl@programming.dev
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            1 year ago

            I know I was being snarky, but I do appreciate the context. The monopolizing bit clarifies it for me as something that you may own but if found to be monopolizing the resource to a detriment of the community, that is not acceptable. So “own” isn’t really used here to mean entitled to, but something that you may possess as an appropriation while acting in good faith.

          • virtualbriefcase@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            “Or some other other solution to be determined by the state in question”

            Gulags, generally speaking

            • purahna@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              I literally said “liquidating you as a class” as a possible retaliation. “Gulags” is not a gotcha, if you hoard or destroy food during a famine you are committing murder and you need to be stopped for the good of society.

              By the way, the US prison population today is higher than the Gulag population of the entire Soviet Union at its peak. I’d sure as hell rather see gulags full of reactionaries and food-burners than full of drug users and the chronically unemployed. I’m curious, why do you prefer the latter?

              • virtualbriefcase@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                By the way, the US prison population today is higher than the Gulag population of the entire Soviet Union at its peak.

                Well being worked to death and/or being strait up shot tends to keep those numbers down. And how many of those “hoarders” were quite literally starving but they had a tiny bit on hand? And how many more were in there for “anti-soviet behavior” instead of anything related to hoarding or destroying food.

                “Gulags” is not a gotcha

                Gulags, concentration camps and the like are definitely a “gotcha” as much as a “gatcha” can exist.

              • aport@programming.dev
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                1 year ago

                Tankie apologetics 101:

                1. Every victim of Bolshevik aggression deserved it
                2. What about America?
                • purahna@lemmygrad.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  it blows my mind the lengths that online rightists will go to to defend literally burning food during a famine. Why?

            • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Yes, people who burn food during a famine should be rehabilitated, and prisons were the method (that doesn’t work) that people thought was effective to that end at the time.

              • aport@programming.dev
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                1 year ago

                Yes, people who burn food during a famine should be rehabilitated

                And what of people who steal food during a famine, like the bolsheviks?

                • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  People should steal food from hoarders to redistribute it to starving peasants actually.

                  If youre talking about grain quotas they stopped taking grain out of the region and started importing food when they realized there was a famine.

                  • aport@programming.dev
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                    1 year ago

                    People should steal food from hoarders to redistribute it to starving peasants actually.

                    I agree, but the quota on kulak liquidation led to starving peasants being targeted.

                    If youre talking about grain quotas they stopped taking grain out of the region and started importing food when they realized there was a famine.

                    After millions of people had already starved to death. A minor but necessary bump in the road toward industrialization, I’m sure.

                • purahna@lemmygrad.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  You’re right, it’s so fucked up that Stalin stole all those poor Kulaks’ grain and put it in a big swimming pool so that he and his cabinet could swim around in it like Scrooge McDuck.

                  • aport@programming.dev
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                    1 year ago

                    Are there Kulaks in the room with you right now?

                    The soviets took enough grain from Ukrainian peasants to induce widespread hunger and death. But let’s blame 1% of the peasantry who had already liquidated as a class.

          • aport@programming.dev
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            1 year ago

            In reality the party takes the food you’ve grown for your family and gives it to urban centers, and if you resist you catch a bullet.

      • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Want to add on that there is another distinction which I think is slightly more accurate. Personal property only denies use to others through the details of use by the owner, private property prevents others from using resources that the person using the property isn’t directly using through threats of violence.

      • coltorl@programming.dev
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        1 year ago

        I’m sorry, are you implying that private ownership of a means of production (in this case, farm land) is acceptable in a socialist economy?

        • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          What I never quite understand/know is where internet based services land. If I run a cloud based storage company / web design company or such, the servers are on my personal property and therefore should be considered allowed. Where does that start becoming non “personal.”

          It’s like charging someone to park their ideas/data on my personal property. Which I imagine would be considered private property instead. Where is the nuanced line?

          Anyone care to explain?

          • zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            1 year ago

            We’re communicating using the fediverse. I can use my own private instance to connect, but in my case I am using a “collective” instance. While capitalism sees the Lemmy Blahaj as a “private enterprise”, it is functionally more akin to a free associative collective where members can take their content with them.

            I would say part of the confusion is because our technology has evolved in a capitalist context, collectivism isn’t the default state of being so the solutions made cater towards (corporate) private ownership.

    • AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Wrong. Personal property is owned by an individual person. Private property is owned by corporations/ capital. It’s impossible for one to magically change into the other.

      • coltorl@programming.dev
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        1 year ago

        Oh cool, socialism is when you own a means of production but only keep some of the produced goods.

        • GreatGrapeApe@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          If you keep more than you need, yes. Socialism is not about hoarding wealth especially in the form of necessary goods.

        • brainrein@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          Socialism is when you don’t have to do alienated work. And when noone else has to. Of course the productivity will be higher if you share the means of production with others. But it’s perfectly fine to work on your own too and harvest the fruit of your work. As you know, nobody gets rich by his own hands work, but you can get along. Capitalist exploitation starts when other people work for you and when you take the added value for your own benefits.

    • zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 year ago

      Under a capitalist legal framework yes, but hear me out, it’s possible to redefine laws and is really what this debate is about.