Good, this is nothing like Marathon. Marathon in name only. Its got a cool art style, but the genre of game is literally the worst toxic cesspool Bungie could possibly have picked. Even worse than whatever they did to Destiny 2. Theyre trying to trend chase a trend that never really existed in the first place.
EDIT: Reading the article, its actually somehow even worse. The former director of Valorant is now in charge, and theyre moving away from custom player characters to just a selectable cast of heroes.
Now its a Hero Extraction Shooter. Games even more dead than before.
I would be hyped to play a new version of actual Marathon, it’s a game that existed before my time and was only on Mac before they were cool so basically no one played it.
This is just a different skin on a genre that has no interest whatsoever to me.
There has definitely been a trend towards extraction shooters and I think there absolutely is market for a more mainstream extraction shooter. I can understand that it’s not everyone’s cup of tea because it can be a very stressful experience. But I think the lack of a genre giant is what drove Bungie to make an extraction shooter because in terms of mainstream that genre is very much in its infancy and there’s no de facto king (Tarkov doesn’t count because that’s not mainstream and never will be). You nail it and you’ve got a golden goose that’s also really easy to turn into a live-service game.
The issue is that it’s an extremely difficult genre to get right and making it mainstream might end up needing to walk a very fine line. I guess that’s why Marathon essentially in development hell because from what they teased to the public some time ago felt like they didn’t really understand the core of the genre and if you don’t understand the core you’re going to have a very bad time making it mainstream.
I’m also not sure about the pivot to “hero extraction shooter”. Seems like Delta Force Hawk Ops also has gone down that route and it doesn’t look all that horrible, but adding heroes does nothing for the core concepts of an extraction shooter. That is not going to save Marathon.
I don’t think extraction shooter crowd would consider Helldivers an extraction shooter.
Helldivers is a PvE game while extraction shooter genre is primarily PvEvP. I know games like gray zone zero have PvE servers and even Tarkov has added a PvE mode, but a lot of the purists would say you have to have PvP as well. I personally don’t view it that way but IMO that’s not the only thing preventing Helldivers from being an extraction shooter.
Another aspect that extraction shooters have that Helldivers doesn’t is the loot. Whatever equipment you bring into the match is at risk of being lost forever. If someone kills you and takes your gun, you need a new gun because the previous one is gone. Similarly whatever loot you pick up during the raid is also lost when you die. Helldivers doesn’t work that way. You never lose your gear during missions and while you can lose samples you can’t lose credits or super credits. Overall in Helldivers there’s not really much loot to pick up or lose, which is not really true for the extraction shooters that are still alive.
And finally is the “why go into a raid”. In extraction shooters the player generally sets their own goals, either to complete a quest, collect some loot or just do PvP. In Helldivers the reason for going in is predetermined, you do the mission and then you extract. Your “mission” can’t change mid raid like it can in extraction shooters.
At a high level helldivers can look like an extraction shooter, but as I pointed out there are objective reasons that separate helldivers from extraction shooters.
I appreciate that overview, and I can see what you mean now that you break it all down. I was looking at it very superficially: it’s a shooter and the goal is to extract.
I would imagine some of those stakes that make the genre what it is would make it difficult for it to ever see truly mainstream appeal, too. I know for me while a lot of that stuff sounds cool on paper, it would also drive a player like me away because the stakes are too high and it takes the fun out of it for me if I’m constantly losing everything I worked for. I’d much rather watch someone else play a game like that than play it myself.
That’s not a diss on the genre at all, just my honest reaction to it.
Absolutely. It’s a really difficult genre to create games for because you need to balance PvP and PvE so that one doesn’t overpower the other. Then you need to balance gear progression so the equipment you find is a meaningful upgrade over the starting great, but it can’t be too meaningful so starting gear still has a chance against someone who is kitted out.
There’s no clear “best execution” as each game has its flaws or quirks. I think Escape from Tarkov is currently still the overall best as it has more or less defined the genre, but it’s not without it’s obvious flaws.
The biggest obvious flaw that will kick in the nuts of new players is the wall of game knowledge they need just to survive a raid, and the game explains nothing. The first timer experience is one where you’re thrown into a map and told “at these points you can extract” and then you’re not told where you spawned nor where the extractions are. Good luck figuring out where to go. Oh and if you didn’t take the right healing items with you better enjoy limping around the map. There are a lot of other issues with game as well that I’m not going to get into because I could write a term paper on everything wrong with Tarkov.
As for the future. I have my hopes on Delta Force Hawk Ops. It’s currently in closed playtest so I can’t play it myself but from what I’ve seen on the web it seems to get the Tarkov formula and is making it more accessible to the casual player so my guess it that’s the one to keep an eye out.
There’s also Dark and Darker but I’m not into swords and sorcery so I can’t comment how good that game is.
By that thinking, Deep Rock Galactic would qualify as an “extraction shooter,” but literally nobody that plays DRG or that plays extraction shooters would ever call it that. Its a coop survival shooter. Like Left 4 Dead. And thinking about it, wouldn’t L4D technically be an extraction shooter by the same thinking?
Good, this is nothing like Marathon. Marathon in name only. Its got a cool art style, but the genre of game is literally the worst toxic cesspool Bungie could possibly have picked. Even worse than whatever they did to Destiny 2. Theyre trying to trend chase a trend that never really existed in the first place.
EDIT: Reading the article, its actually somehow even worse. The former director of Valorant is now in charge, and theyre moving away from custom player characters to just a selectable cast of heroes.
Now its a Hero Extraction Shooter. Games even more dead than before.
Agreed.
I would be hyped to play a new version of actual Marathon, it’s a game that existed before my time and was only on Mac before they were cool so basically no one played it.
This is just a different skin on a genre that has no interest whatsoever to me.
I love Marathon. I am obsessed with Marathon. Durandal has a goddamn four story mansion, condo and summer home in my head, all rent free.
I have zero interest in this game.
There has definitely been a trend towards extraction shooters and I think there absolutely is market for a more mainstream extraction shooter. I can understand that it’s not everyone’s cup of tea because it can be a very stressful experience. But I think the lack of a genre giant is what drove Bungie to make an extraction shooter because in terms of mainstream that genre is very much in its infancy and there’s no de facto king (Tarkov doesn’t count because that’s not mainstream and never will be). You nail it and you’ve got a golden goose that’s also really easy to turn into a live-service game.
The issue is that it’s an extremely difficult genre to get right and making it mainstream might end up needing to walk a very fine line. I guess that’s why Marathon essentially in development hell because from what they teased to the public some time ago felt like they didn’t really understand the core of the genre and if you don’t understand the core you’re going to have a very bad time making it mainstream.
I’m also not sure about the pivot to “hero extraction shooter”. Seems like Delta Force Hawk Ops also has gone down that route and it doesn’t look all that horrible, but adding heroes does nothing for the core concepts of an extraction shooter. That is not going to save Marathon.
Helldivers 2 is probably the biggest so far, right?
I don’t think extraction shooter crowd would consider Helldivers an extraction shooter.
Helldivers is a PvE game while extraction shooter genre is primarily PvEvP. I know games like gray zone zero have PvE servers and even Tarkov has added a PvE mode, but a lot of the purists would say you have to have PvP as well. I personally don’t view it that way but IMO that’s not the only thing preventing Helldivers from being an extraction shooter.
Another aspect that extraction shooters have that Helldivers doesn’t is the loot. Whatever equipment you bring into the match is at risk of being lost forever. If someone kills you and takes your gun, you need a new gun because the previous one is gone. Similarly whatever loot you pick up during the raid is also lost when you die. Helldivers doesn’t work that way. You never lose your gear during missions and while you can lose samples you can’t lose credits or super credits. Overall in Helldivers there’s not really much loot to pick up or lose, which is not really true for the extraction shooters that are still alive.
And finally is the “why go into a raid”. In extraction shooters the player generally sets their own goals, either to complete a quest, collect some loot or just do PvP. In Helldivers the reason for going in is predetermined, you do the mission and then you extract. Your “mission” can’t change mid raid like it can in extraction shooters.
At a high level helldivers can look like an extraction shooter, but as I pointed out there are objective reasons that separate helldivers from extraction shooters.
I appreciate that overview, and I can see what you mean now that you break it all down. I was looking at it very superficially: it’s a shooter and the goal is to extract.
I would imagine some of those stakes that make the genre what it is would make it difficult for it to ever see truly mainstream appeal, too. I know for me while a lot of that stuff sounds cool on paper, it would also drive a player like me away because the stakes are too high and it takes the fun out of it for me if I’m constantly losing everything I worked for. I’d much rather watch someone else play a game like that than play it myself.
That’s not a diss on the genre at all, just my honest reaction to it.
Absolutely. It’s a really difficult genre to create games for because you need to balance PvP and PvE so that one doesn’t overpower the other. Then you need to balance gear progression so the equipment you find is a meaningful upgrade over the starting great, but it can’t be too meaningful so starting gear still has a chance against someone who is kitted out.
What do you think is the best execution on that formula so far?
There’s no clear “best execution” as each game has its flaws or quirks. I think Escape from Tarkov is currently still the overall best as it has more or less defined the genre, but it’s not without it’s obvious flaws.
The biggest obvious flaw that will kick in the nuts of new players is the wall of game knowledge they need just to survive a raid, and the game explains nothing. The first timer experience is one where you’re thrown into a map and told “at these points you can extract” and then you’re not told where you spawned nor where the extractions are. Good luck figuring out where to go. Oh and if you didn’t take the right healing items with you better enjoy limping around the map. There are a lot of other issues with game as well that I’m not going to get into because I could write a term paper on everything wrong with Tarkov.
As for the future. I have my hopes on Delta Force Hawk Ops. It’s currently in closed playtest so I can’t play it myself but from what I’ve seen on the web it seems to get the Tarkov formula and is making it more accessible to the casual player so my guess it that’s the one to keep an eye out.
There’s also Dark and Darker but I’m not into swords and sorcery so I can’t comment how good that game is.
Interesting, thanks for the rundown.
By that thinking, Deep Rock Galactic would qualify as an “extraction shooter,” but literally nobody that plays DRG or that plays extraction shooters would ever call it that. Its a coop survival shooter. Like Left 4 Dead. And thinking about it, wouldn’t L4D technically be an extraction shooter by the same thinking?